Comments on: Tell me again how American tourists can make a difference in Cuba? http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/ ...an island on the net without a bearded dictator Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:11:16 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » The Christmas Week Carnival of Latin America and the Caribbean http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105536 Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » The Christmas Week Carnival of Latin America and the Caribbean Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:26:33 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105536 [...] CUBA Tell me again how American tourists can make a difference in Cuba? [...] [...] CUBA Tell me again how American tourists can make a difference in Cuba? [...]

]]> By: FreeMarketeros http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105471 FreeMarketeros Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:29:07 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105471 Mr. de la Cruz makes a good point in saying that American tourists have just as unlikely chance of democratizing Cuba as visitors from other countries. I have not been to Cuba, but from friends and colleagues of mine who have gone there it seems that it is not the type of visitor who goes, it's the environment they find there that can determine whether the visitor will have an impact. Cuba's controlled political atmosphere and the fact that the government keeps everyone under its thumb, economically speaking as well as through civil rights repression, means that no matter who visits there won't be a liberalization. That could mean the Pope, leaders of multilateral institutions, etc. could visit and no improvement may occur. Perhaps some will disagree, but that's the impression I get from friends and colleagues. For those of you who want yet another unhappy account of life in Cuba, please visit this blog entry written by a friend who went to Cuba for 10 days this November: http://www.freemarketeros.com/Site/Blog/Entries/2009/12/19_No_Goals_in_Cuban_Life.html Keep up the great work at Babalublog. Mr. de la Cruz makes a good point in saying that American tourists have just as unlikely chance of democratizing Cuba as visitors from other countries. I have not been to Cuba, but from friends and colleagues of mine who have gone there it seems that it is not the type of visitor who goes, it's the environment they find there that can determine whether the visitor will have an impact. Cuba's controlled political atmosphere and the fact that the government keeps everyone under its thumb, economically speaking as well as through civil rights repression, means that no matter who visits there won't be a liberalization. That could mean the Pope, leaders of multilateral institutions, etc. could visit and no improvement may occur. Perhaps some will disagree, but that's the impression I get from friends and colleagues. For those of you who want yet another unhappy account of life in Cuba, please visit this blog entry written by a friend who went to Cuba for 10 days this November:

http://www.freemarketeros.com/Site/Blog/Entries/2009/12/19_No_Goals_in_Cuban_Life.html

Keep up the great work at Babalublog.

]]> By: Alberto de la Cruz http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105467 Alberto de la Cruz Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:41:09 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105467 I think the title of my post, Cardinal, makes clear who I was referring to in regards to those arguments. Nevertheless, the saloon keepers anecdote is priceless. I think the title of my post, Cardinal, makes clear who I was referring to in regards to those arguments. Nevertheless, the saloon keepers anecdote is priceless.

]]> By: theCardinal http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105464 theCardinal Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:35:34 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105464 some do use the argument but some don't - I agree that the former is lame and honestly, the latter doesn't mean spit to me, but makes sense. As Horace Greeley once said of Democrats - "I'm not saying that all Democrats are saloon keepers, I'm just saying that all saloon keepers are Democrats." Not every travel ban opponent uses the freedom for Cuba bit but all of those that believe American tourists will free Cuba are obviously opposed to the ban. some do use the argument but some don't - I agree that the former is lame and honestly, the latter doesn't mean spit to me, but makes sense. As Horace Greeley once said of Democrats - "I'm not saying that all Democrats are saloon keepers, I'm just saying that all saloon keepers are Democrats." Not every travel ban opponent uses the freedom for Cuba bit but all of those that believe American tourists will free Cuba are obviously opposed to the ban.

]]> By: Alberto de la Cruz http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105460 Alberto de la Cruz Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:41:32 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105460 I disagree with you Cardinal. I don't believe my logic made any "leaps" whatsoever when I compared both arguments. I did not say the arguments were the same, only related. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that just because Americans are free to travel to a country with a dictatorship, it does not mean that their presence there will help the citizens of that country achieve freedom. At this moment, you have opponents of the embargo using both of these arguments simultaneously to achieve a relaxation of the travel restrictions to Cuba. Therefore, whether they like it or not, both arguments become entwined, including the faults behind them. I disagree with you Cardinal. I don't believe my logic made any "leaps" whatsoever when I compared both arguments. I did not say the arguments were the same, only related.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that just because Americans are free to travel to a country with a dictatorship, it does not mean that their presence there will help the citizens of that country achieve freedom. At this moment, you have opponents of the embargo using both of these arguments simultaneously to achieve a relaxation of the travel restrictions to Cuba. Therefore, whether they like it or not, both arguments become entwined, including the faults behind them.

]]> By: theCardinal http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105457 theCardinal Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:39:51 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105457 Ditto on the above. Why should we apply a standard for Americans that we can't apply to our own. Alberto makes a logical leap in knocking off the "Americans should be free to travel" argument. The "promote democracy in Cuba" and the "Americans should be free to travel" arguments are really two different ones. I'm sure Orbitz isn't dumping money into a campaign for travel to Cuba because it is concerned for the man on the street in Cuba. I don't really like the idea of lifting the ban by itself - I can't think of anything that we do that would please the regime more. Tourist are ideal revenue sources for the regime - their only demands are safety, low cost, sun and fun. Easy money for Castro Inc. Ditto on the above. Why should we apply a standard for Americans that we can't apply to our own. Alberto makes a logical leap in knocking off the "Americans should be free to travel" argument. The "promote democracy in Cuba" and the "Americans should be free to travel" arguments are really two different ones. I'm sure Orbitz isn't dumping money into a campaign for travel to Cuba because it is concerned for the man on the street in Cuba. I don't really like the idea of lifting the ban by itself - I can't think of anything that we do that would please the regime more. Tourist are ideal revenue sources for the regime - their only demands are safety, low cost, sun and fun. Easy money for Castro Inc.

]]> By: FreedomForCuba http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105449 FreedomForCuba Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:19:32 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105449 Mr. Mojito, I’ll apply the same logic to the exiles going to Cuba now. Leave them there if they like Cuba so much as they should have never come to America. Mr. Mojito,

I’ll apply the same logic to the exiles going to Cuba now.

Leave them there if they like Cuba so much as they should have never come to America.

]]> By: paul vincent zecchino http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105443 paul vincent zecchino Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:33:11 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105443 Mr. Mojito - Like your idea idea. Full disclosure: Will suggest it to those who brag that visiting Cuba by some political alchemy will make cagasstro nice. It won't. They wanna go there, sing bag-man's praises? They oughta stay there & do it up close, feel the love rather than from up here where they go on and on and on about their DGI-escorted 'stooge tour' of the island gulag. What'd this guy, there, Bubenik, think'd happen? He'd take a run down Cuba, chat up dissidents, and what them zany DGI guys would show up dressed in Huckleberry Hound costumes and hand everybody chocolate Hoodsies and twenny dollar bills? This guy realize where he was going? He endangered himself and everyone with whom he had contact on the island. While back, this Canadian visits Cuba. He brings a small portable radio to tune Cuban AM stations and tell his fellow radio listeners up here what he heard. In America, people do that alla time. In Cuba? Big secret. So big, them zany, fun loving DGI guys grab this guy, keep his radio, and kic him loose only after several terrifying days. This guy had visited Cuba in the past many times, but said he'd never get near the place again after being roughed up & held by cagasstro's goons. Visiting Cuba will make fido nice. Yeah. Right. Just like sharing a box of Good 'n Plenty's with a rattlesnake will make him nice. Talk about studies in naivete. Paul Vincent Zecchino Manasoviet Key, Florida 18 December, 2009 Mr. Mojito -

Like your idea idea. Full disclosure: Will suggest it to those who brag that visiting Cuba by some political alchemy will make cagasstro nice.

It won't.

They wanna go there, sing bag-man's praises? They oughta stay there & do it up close, feel the love rather than from up here where they go on and on and on about their DGI-escorted 'stooge tour' of the island gulag.

What'd this guy, there, Bubenik, think'd happen? He'd take a run down Cuba, chat up dissidents, and what them zany DGI guys would show up dressed in Huckleberry Hound costumes and hand everybody chocolate Hoodsies and twenny dollar bills?

This guy realize where he was going? He endangered himself and everyone with whom he had contact on the island.

While back, this Canadian visits Cuba. He brings a small portable radio to tune Cuban AM stations and tell his fellow radio listeners up here what he heard.

In America, people do that alla time. In Cuba? Big secret.

So big, them zany, fun loving DGI guys grab this guy, keep his radio, and kic him loose only after several terrifying days.

This guy had visited Cuba in the past many times, but said he'd never get near the place again after being roughed up & held by cagasstro's goons.

Visiting Cuba will make fido nice. Yeah. Right.

Just like sharing a box of Good 'n Plenty's with a rattlesnake will make him nice.

Talk about studies in naivete.

Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasoviet Key, Florida
18 December, 2009

]]> By: Mr. Mojito http://babalublog.com/2009/12/tell-me-again-how-american-tourists-can-make-a-difference-in-cuba/#comment-105440 Mr. Mojito Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:18:37 +0000 http://babalublog.com/?p=30967#comment-105440 How about a compromise ??? Americans can travel there ... they just can't come back :) How about a compromise ???

Americans can travel there ... they just can't come back :)

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