34 thoughts on “Reason #533”

  1. Disgusting.
    Seems like they forgot the atrocities Fidel did to the Church…or maybe they are giving “la otra mejilla”???

  2. Yes!! As a catholic I am praying hard that the PIMP dies and goes and meet the foreigner che in hell.

  3. for years the protestants (unaffiliated) have had a hard time in Cuba while the catholics have had much freedom. This is one of the many reasons. Another is that some if not much of their humanitarian aid goes through the government where the others give it directly. fidel has a friend in Rome. I’m surprised that they didn’t pray that the dissidents would be executed. Thye are aware that Cuba has dissidents aren’t they?

  4. Just in from CNN:
    WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is sending a message to the Cuban people imploring them not to flee the island for Florida because of political uncertainty.
    Rice’s message will be transmitted over U.S. government radio and television stations that are beamed to Cuba, State Department spokesman Tom Casey said.
    That same message has been relayed to the Cuban people for years, particularly since the announcement on Monday that President Fidel Castro had temporarily transferred power to his brother Raul because of an intestinal ailment.
    The State Department was planning to release a transcript of Rice’s remarks prior to their broadcast over Radio Marti and TV Marti Friday evening.
    The stations have limited audiences because of Cuban jamming operations.

    They send what they want but not the CANF’s message? No surprise they just returned 29 people to Cuba yesterday.

  5. Im sorry, mis amigos, but this is a classic cop-out and logical fallacy. The Catholic Church in Cuba speaks for itself and its parish, not the Church Enitre. And I don’t think you will register the same response from the Catholic hierarchy in Miami, quite honestly. Two common fallacies that persist today stipulate that anything a local church says or does is somehow “infalliable” or that it speaks for the church entire. Wong on both counts. I believe it is our Savior who implores us to “pray for those who are persecuting you”…. but I guess you guys only regard that as a friendly suggestion?

    I don’t think it’s contradictory to for someone simultaneously pray for someone else and also wish for that same person to die. That’s exactly how I feel about castro now. I certainly would not want to be in his zapatos now, knowing that the full weight of his earthly behavior is about to come crashing down on his eternal soul.

  6. Maybe these “Bishops” could have prayed for change…or for freedom for political prisoners…or food for starving windows and children. Maybe they should have prayed for divine providence to intervene on behalf of the Cuban people so that they can finally be free. God knows there are plenty of things to pray for in Cuba.

    If there are any new converts in Cuba…something like this would surely make them turn away.

    This is shameful and it is not just a “local” Church …it was an entire conference of Bishops. The article cites “Cuba’s Roman Catholic Church” And they are praying for his RECOVERY! So they are, in essence, praying for more of the same.

  7. Just when I thought the Catholic church would surprise me by, for once, having some backbone in Cuba, they side with the fucken criminal dictator!!!

    I may have grown up Catholic,(until I was old enough to think for myself)but the Vatican continues to disappoint me with regard to both Cuba and Israel.

  8. Mavi, Amen to your comments!

    Lucha Libre, I am not sure I understood your comments but I know that wrestlers get pounded on their head often and that may explain your comments.

  9. The Cuban Church is a disagrace. They’re too afraid to lose the few concessions they’ve been by the tyrant. And let us remember all the curas comunistas. From that one asshole in Brazil, to the Sandinista priests who ended up joining Ortega’s freakshow.

  10. I have to weigh in with Lucha Libra. The statement comes from Cuba’s Catholic Church, not the Vatican and not the US. I am a practicing Catholic and except for a doddering lefty idiot priest at my parish, I have heard nothing but support for the Cuban people and disdain for Castro.

    It is just too easy for those who dislike the Catholic Church to condemn the whole church with isolated statements that don’t represent official positions. The Cuban Church probably has the same game rules that the “official” Chinese Church has to contend with – toe the party line or suffer the consequences (the underground Chinese Catholic Church was the only one recognized by JPII).

    And not to be too snarky but – I’ve never gotten the impression that you were chomping at the bit to get to any church, Val.

  11. Protestants who use this as a reason to discredit the whole body of the Catholic Church ought to be careful…

    Council of Churches, anyone?

    Pastors for Peace?

    They’re not Catholic, but I don’t see anyone condemning all Protestant organizations just because of those yahoos.

  12. Mu disagreement(s) with the Catholic are wide and deep. This is just the latest infamia from the church that disgusts me to no end. Does anyone remember the Boston Archdiocese?

  13. I have to agree with George. When was the last time we heard the church condemn Castro’s totalitarian government?

  14. No way, Jose. 🙂 It’s true, ive been hit on the head several times in my lifetime, but it hasn’t impeded my ability to get out a cogent thought or two every now and then. Let me further clarify my remarks.

    I am as gladdened as anyone when unremorseful, unrepentant evil meets its end. That is what is happening (or has happened) here. As inmypajamas has rightly pointed out, its way too easy to take simultaneously take potshots at the entire Churh and put down religious faith because of the moral failings of many priests in Cuba. For believers such as myself, our faith exists independently of our own human failings, and it is certainly not predicated on the perfection of character of the priesthood. You’re looking at the problem in reverse, my friend.

    The same dynamic that exists with the Catholic Church Cuba is also happening in China. These priests are walking a fine line between keeping their churches viable and being arrested. Precious few of them are really holding true to principle and openly opposing the regimes they live under. Im am not excusing their support of Castro, but it is understandable, and even predictable. How many people not currently in gulags are openly calling for Castro’s ouster? Not too many, rest assured. God Bless the ones that are. And let me ask you this- there are thousands and thousands of people in Cuba who love and idolize Castro- as wrongheaded as these people are, what will be the Cuban community’s response to them after their idol is gone and their whole worldview comes crashing down on them? Are you going to further berate and criticize these people too for not having the backbone to stand up to Castro? Or is it only the priesthood that you reserve your criticism for?

    And as Robert has pointed out, The National Council of Churches and The World Council of Churches are ultra-leftist organizations comprised of Protestant Churches EXISTING IN FREE SOCIETIES, no less, providing religious cover for dictatorships and communists. These organizations even condemned the U.S.’s response after 9-11 in Afghanistan, in effect making them terrorist sympathizers. In my opinion the response from across the religious spectrum since 9-11 has been pretty disappointing. Nonetheless, my faith is stronger than ever, in spite of the lack of backbone religious leaders in the free West have displayed.

    And to clarify again- no individual priest, no single church, not even a Conference of Bishops can issue any position statement or doctrine approaching “infalliability”. This very limited authority is reserved for the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra, and the entire Magisterium of the Church. So yes, even conferences of bishops can and do err. Ive been totally disappointed with the U.S. Bishops and their policy statements which endorse the Democratic Party’s Social and Economic policies on numerous occasions.

    Chesterton once remarked that The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried. Perhaps if castro ever had developed an authentic religious faith the size of a mustard seed rather than ape the errors of communism, he would never have wrought so much human misery and sorrow to his people. His idolatry of the state and his own corrupted ego will now join the ash heap of history, and he will be judged by his maker. AMEN.

  15. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s.” The Church thinks it is Caesar and forgets it’s the representative of God on Earth. I admire all of you have retained their faith. But my conscience tells me that supporting an organization that routinely condemns the good and blesses the evil is not worthy of my support. It’s not just this: pedophilia covered up on purpose without regard to the victims, and pedophile priests routinely reassigned without regard to potential new victims; the Vatican’s consistent support of Arab nations and almost ubiquitous condemnation of Israel; the church’s documented and shameful role (along with CIA) in helping SS and other Nazi war criminals escape Germany after World War II; the concordat with Hitler; Vatican II; the refusal of John XXIII to make the Fatima secret public. The list goes on and on. It is a political organization, not a spiritual one. If they just admitted that, without the dissimulated spirituality, I’d have more respect for them. I know the individuals in the Church try to do good works. I see that in my Parish. But the Holy See is not my Parish: they are THE VOICE of the Church and their morals and behavior on so many things is utterly reprehensible. I am sorry, but that’s how I feel.

  16. George-

    My goal here isn’t to chide you for your lack of faith – it’s to put forth a cogent argument from a faith-based perspective. I would consider it more that a small oversight for you to neglect to mention John Paul II’s enormous efforts against Communism in Eastern Europe. As I looked through your laundry list of lowlights of the Church, many of your points are entirely fair criticism, and deservedly so. A few are not. But for everyone of those failures you reference, I could cite innumerable acts of heroic virtue by religious people, layity and clergy alike. If you were at all fair towards the Church, you would have to cite the good and bad, not just a selective recital of its past mistakes and abuses alone.

    And as much as you may try to deny it, Religion; more specifically our Judeo-Christian heritage, and its largest component, the Catholic Church, have nurtured the development of the individual and of Western civilization. Whenever this heritage is casually tossed aside or ignored, far more malevolent forms of tyranny inevitably fill its void. Secular Humanism will not save us from ourselves. Right now, the people of Cuba are scarred both physically, mentally, and spiritually from decades of tyranny. Along with all the material wants we will ultimtely have to supply to the Cuban people, these are also a people in enormous need of healing, caring, and support. You can bet that groups from across the religious spectrum will be at the tip of the proverbial spear when it comes to providing that to Cubans.

  17. And let me ask you this- there are thousands and thousands of people in Cuba who love and idolize Castro- as wrongheaded as these people are, what will be the Cuban community’s response to them after their idol is gone and their whole worldview comes crashing down on them?

    They will be irrelevant. Period. What they did or didn’t do for Cuba’s liberty will not be forgotten, but they will be irrelevant in a Free Cuba.

    George, I’m with you on this 100%. And Lucha, Western Civilization is what it is today IN SPITE of the Church, not because of it. Dark Ages anyone? Inquisition anyone? When we say Judeo-Christian, we’re talking Protestant Ethic not Catholic. The Founding Fathers, Stuart Mill, Locke, en fin all the Enlightenment figures who were instrumental in the development of liberal democracy were Protestant.

  18. Yoan-

    Your cursory round-up of two millenia of history is a bunch of nonsense on stilts. According to your pretty selective and narrow interpretation of history, the 1500 years of Christedom were really a “Dark Ages” before the glorious Anti-Semite Martin Luther appeared on the scence to spread the True Faith. Please spare me the Catholic Church-as-the-nexus-of-all evil view of history posing as real history, ok? The awful Schism that Luther started resulted in the Repression of the Catholic Church in England for hundreds of years, and religous strife throughout the continent for centuries. Talk about a reformer with results! I know we’re really getting off the topic of this thread, but you really need to go back to school or hit the books again to get a broader understanding of history if your goal is to intelligently opine on the development of Western Civilization.

    And quite honestly, Yoan, im a bit miffed by your assertion that Cuban supporters of Castro will be “irrelevant” after the disposal of the regime. These people have to be engaged in the nation-rebuilding process, unless of course you would be content with continual strife and domestic unrest on the island after the castroites have been deposed.

  19. Lucha, the Church was anti-semitic way before Luther. He only reflected his times and the beliefs of his former church. I am not condemning the Judeo-Christian ethic; I am only pointing out the failings of its major institution, and why I, as an individual, do not countenance it. Yoan will probably agree with me on this as you will: I will defend Holy Mother Church against the invading eastern barbarians if I have to, whether or not I agree with her. As for the Cubans on the Island that support fidel, most will change their tune eventually, some will be fidelistas until the day of their death. After all, there are Nazis still in the world actively plying their evil philosophy.

  20. George-

    There are failings in the Church as an institution, as there are in all institutions, as they are comprised of falliable and flawed human beings. If you are only going to countenance or support institutions, groups, or governments with persons who are of perfect character without flaws, you will never be able to support anyone. When you again paint the entire Church as “anti-semitic” throughout history, it’s really a distortion. In truth, the Church’s relations with Jews have gone thru through periods of peaceful co-existence and awful periods of repression. And you will not find any anti-Semitism in the lives of the Saints, the Princes of the Church who are our true heroes. I contend that without the an active Church and the affirmatiion of our Judeo-Christian heritage, life would be much more nasty, brutish, and short, to quote Hobbes; and it remains a critical stopgap against a worldview that is much less tolerant and much more repressive. Just look at Europe as the model of civilizational decline- these people have lost their faith and lost their confidence in their own culture and civilzation. Muslims are immigrating en mass into Europe, and they will be slowly gathering political clout throughout post-Christian Europe. What do you think the character of Europe will be in 20, 50 100 years? Quite different then it looks now if this mass immigration of unassimilating Muslims continues and the declining birth rate of European countries also continues.

    I think ive made it clear that ive been very disappointed with public statements about Cuba, the war on against Islamofacists from everyone across the religious spectrum. Quite honestly, as a person of faith, I have to admit that most (but certainly not all) of the intelligent commentary and moral clarity regarding Cuba and the War on Terrorism has emanated from individuals whom I know aren’t overtly religious or even agnostic. Yet they understand realpolitik and why the brutish forces of tyranny need to be confronted rather than placated, and I am thankful that we have such individuals to keep our society from waivering on this critical issue.

    I do agree with you that we should be vigorously defending the our Faith and Civilization from today’s version of the Babarians and Vandals- IslamoFacists. But George, where you go wrong is you conflate “Faith” with the flawed human character of individuals within the Church. It’s by no means contradictory to vigorously hold fast to what the Church teaches about God, Christ, and its Church on earth, and disagree or oppose every wrongheaded pronouncement, policy, priest, or individual within it.

  21. I see I’ve touched a nerve. First of all, the fact that you saw it necessary to start attacking me personally says a lot about where we stand. I’m not going to address your characterizations of me, but I will say this: if you don’t agree with me, fine, but keep your personal attacks to yourself.

    I’m not going to sit here and defend one side of Christianity vs. another. I leave that to you and other believers of organized religion on both sides of the divide.

    How am I selective? The Dark Ages are widely acknowledged to be one of the most backward periods in human history. Culturally, politically, spiritually, scientifically; anyway you look at it this assesment holds. And while we’re on anti-Semitism, one phrase: Spanish Inquisition.

    You didn’t even address the *Protestant* Enlightenment, and the resulting era of wealth, prosperity, and freedom, so I take it you concede the point.

    With regards to the die-hard fans of the tyrant, you don’t reason with Communists anymore than you try to have a dialogue with Fascists. You simply keep them in check, and ignore them. If they change their totalitarian tune, then it’s a whole different ballgame.

    And you’re right George, I’d take the *Modern* Church over the “eastern barbarians” as you so eloquently put it.

  22. Yoan-

    There’s not one ad hominum attack on you in any of my remarks, just a thorough questioning of your assertions and judgements. Trust me, there’s nothing personal, but your thorough re-write of history is in need of serious reconsideration, whether you know it or not. This kind of blog is not the kind of forum for going into extensive re-analyses of history, and we dont need to bore the bejeezus out of people debating whether Jean-Jaques Rousseau’s writings were all that “enlightened”. For what it’s worth, I believe you are way off base with your crass generlizations about the “Dark Ages”= bad evil repression stupid uneducated Church; and the so called “Enlightenment”= all that is good and noble and the cornerstone of Western Civilization. History really is’nt as simple as you make it out to be.

    One thing that we are in agreement in – The New York Yankees. 🙂

  23. There’s not one ad hominum attack on you in any of my remarks

    For the record:

    but you really need to go back to school or hit the books again to get a broader understanding of history if your goal is to intelligently opine on the development of Western Civilization.

    You are nobody to characterze my OPINIONS as unintelligent and to tell me I “need to go back to school.” I don’t respect condescension or those who practice it. If you want people to respect your opinions you should start by doing the same, sir. I see no point in debating you any further.

  24. I am not a Catholic. However, I can admire the Catholic Church for the good it has done throughout the ages. But, I must also speak out when I believe them to have made a mistake. And although what was recently said in Cuba is not necessarily the position of the Vatican, these Bishops still are the Church’s representative in this atheist Country where the people don’t have access to what the Vatican might be saying: especially if it is negative regarding communism.

    I’m looking at this from the position of a young Cuban just coming to the Church and feel that these statements can really hurt someone who is just coming to the faith.

    Just because one criticizes the Church weather Catholic or Protestant doesn’t mean that one has lost his faith. After all, Jesus Christ was the harshest critic of the leaders of his religion. His true calling was from God and not any organized “Church”.

    I am a Christian and will always be one no matter how stupid and evil I deem some of the so called “spiritual leaders” to be.

  25. Yoan-

    You really need to look at the definition of what constitutes an authentic ad hominum attack. Criticizing your position on an issue or policy is not the same as making a personal attack on you. And if you consider being told you need to go back to school or hit the books again a personal attack, you’re way too sensitive and probably too immature to handle a serious scholarly debate where you can’t employ a unilateral cloture to shut down discussion.

    And these quotes of yours:

    “You are nobody to characterze my OPINIONS as unintelligent and to tell me I “need to go back to school.”

    “I see no point in debating you any further.”

    These comments make you sound like an aspiring dictator. First, you pose as the authoritative historian in this forum, and that you have no need to learn anything from anyone that you disapprove of. Then, you summarily cut off debate because you think are are the source of all wisdom and everyone who contradicts you is wrong. Castro himself raised this type of “debating” to an art form. If you have any aspirations of being a teacher or someone in authority some day, you had better learn to entertain points of view other than your own and evaluate them carefully, rather than cut off debate with people you disagree with because those points of view don’t jive with your own worldview.

  26. The one to blame is the beast himself. The above criticisms against the Catholic Church are unwarranted. The U.S. Department of State’s International Religious Freedom Report 2005, describes the situation of religious freedom in Cuba and discusses the Goverment’s monitoring of such groups. (And the stories of the exiles can affirm.) The Catholic Church in Cuba has to be careful — it can be fined, and its parishes can be shut down. Religious groups in Cuba are monitored by the Ministry of Interior through surveillance, infiltration, and harrasment. This is the situation throughout Cuba. Didn’t you know?

    Further, it was Reuters who used the word “recovery.” The quotation from the Catholic Church is “We ask all our communities to pray that God accompany President Fidel Castro in his illness…” Yeah, accompany Fidel to where?

    Let’s not lose sight of the truth behind the situation, people. The problem is Fidel Castro. Don’t use this as an excuse to lay another blame against the Catholic Church.

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