Im back (Updated)

And why not, let’s hear all those opposing views from all those that have seen fit to not only first air our dirty laundry here publicly, but have chosen to do so by shitting in my house.

Since there’s been so many that have been so vocal about it, let’s all hear your answers as to why I and this blog are a detriment to the freedom of Cuba.

Please be succinct and refrain from bullshit.

It’s your podium now, take advantage of it and convince us. Think about it real good, though, because I will post every single comment here on this blog with my rebuttal.

Dan pie? Tirense.

Update: 8:30 Pm. One hour and a half after I posted this call and we have yet to get a single response. Is there a huddle happening somewhere? A time out call Im not aware of? Consulting the coach and waiting on someone to call the play?

Let’s go. Time’s a’wasting.

176 thoughts on “Im back (Updated)”

  1. Why all the personal attacks? This blog is a great service to our community. Don’t ruin it by responding personally to rude comments…. if it’s constructive criticism, embrace it, otherwise, ignore it. You don’t have to prove your character, it’s demonstrated by the passion you have for this blog. Keep up the good work, and this comes from a Cubana who doesn’t always agree with you Val.

  2. Dear

    Since i see my name in the shit lits. Perhaps you can point me to some of my postings where you feel i have insulted you or in your words shit it in your house. Now if you consider disagreeing with your views insulting then, i’m guilty.

    What’s up with all this name calling. Show me in any of my posts where i have called you any disprectfull names.

    If you don’t like disagreement, then why not turn this into a moderated blog. If you don’t want me post in your sacred space that’s cool man, i’m not going to loose any sleep over it

    Regards

    Ray

  3. Hemetero,

    Before I respond to you, if I may, una pregunta sana y sin malicia: How long have you been reading this blog and have you commented here before?

  4. Val

    I came across your blog about a month ago. Being an american of cuban descent, it caught my interest. I have posted many times over the last month, you can look in your history. If you can show where i call you names or disprected you, i’ll be amazed.

    I live california, so i’m dettached from the cubanamerican discourse that goes in miami, that’s probably why i don’t agree with most of your views.

    If you don’t welcome opposing views, then let me know. Then like i said before you should disclose it in your home page

    regards

    ray

  5. I will contribute my thoughts on the chance that you are indeed providing this opportunity de buena fe in sin malicia. I cannot answer your direct question which is why you and your blog are such a detriment to the cause of Cuba. I cannot answer it because I never suggested such a thing.

    Please go back and re-read my initial comment to your “What Would You Say . . .” post. I expressed my opinion that another round of breathless speculation about the health of the tyrant was not good, and was not constructive. Such speculation merely detracts from the credibility of the Cuban community as a whole. I don’t have to tell you what an uphill battle we have once pegged as “another cuban exile.” We are in dire need of reliable, believable sources of information.

    I implicitly granted you that credibility in my original comment, and urged you not to lose it. I said “you don’t want that.”

    Also, re-read your post. If you are honest with yourself you must agree that it carried more than a hint of breathless “late breaking news” urgency “dying, right now, as we speak.” I found that to be inconsistent with your prior informational and non-sensationalistic posts.

    Why did I choose to comment? Because I had viewed your blog as informative, articulate and not sensationalistic B.S.

    Since my initial comment, you and your “band of brothers” have painted with a very broad brush. I do not speak for anyone but myself. So I do not answer for, or excuse, others who have attacked you personally.

    But,as Hemeterio asks, show me where I have denigraded you, where I have cursed you, or where I have called you names. The same cannot be said of the treatment I received in some of the comments from your “regulars.” Hell, I was even accused of being a communist, and “banned.” Very funny.

    I apoligize for the lenght of my reply. I intended to keep it shorter. One final thought. If I am allowed to dissent from your views from time to time, then I will gladly contribute my thoughts from time to time. I will do this when I agree, and I will do this when I disagree. If, however, dissent is unwelcomed, just let me know, and I shall never darken your door again.

  6. Hi Val:

    At this point I just want out. I did not like being called “an ignorant slut” by Ziva, nor any other of the vile comments and references to kool-aid and moonbats, which by the way I had to ask my son and daughter what it meant because I had no idea of its meaning.

    I do feel and fervently hope that we all want the same things for our native land. (Freedom, democracy and most importantly harmony and peace.) I do not have an agenda but I would like to use an alias (if I am to continue) as I also fear the violent reactions of others. If you would like me to continue please let me know. No hard feelings either way.

    ~Jane

  7. Val

    On the subject of Castro, I know your position regarding him as you have stated over and over in your writings and I can imagine what you would do to him, if you got your hands on him.

    Here’s where we are different. If I got my hands on Castro I would treat him as the enemy of peace and freedom that he is. But I would be civil, not barbaric, while doing it, I would deal with him guided by my own humanity and not his inhumanity. In other words would avoid becoming him

    Kind Regards

    Ray

  8. Jane, on previous post I used this line from Saturday Night Live News Update segment featuring Jane Curtin and Dan Ackroyd:

    “Jane, you ignorant slut.”

    It was me, not Ziva, who wrote that. I meant it to be a funny take on the bashing you were taking in that comment section. Obviously, you do not have a sense of humor, or you’ve never seen SNL.

    And I also called you a “moonbat” and a “kool-aid drinker” based directly on the words you wrote. No other guide was given me: you wrote moonbat claptrap, I called you a moonbat. If these “names” offend you, then change your idiotic, leftist point of view and you won’t have to suffer the indignity of being called these horrible, horrible names anymore.

    Christ almighty, liberals are a tiresome bunch…

  9. Now George

    here we go with personal attacks, i said something you didn’t want hear and you call me a fool, amazing! Perhaps we can have an intelligent exchange. In what i said what do you disagree with? What would you do different?

    regards

    ray

  10. How is calling anyone an “ignorant slut” meant to be taken funny?

    What kind of vile, disturbing humor is that?

  11. George

    Your true colors are commming out, keep posting. I see that val can come with one instance where i attacked and called him names, yet you guys label me and put me in the shit list. My hopes for babalu as a place to exchange ideas with civility are quickly fading.

    ray

  12. I called you a fool for your ideas. Do I still have that right?

    If you say that you “would be civil, not barbaric” with fidel, and that you “would deal with him guided by my own humanity and not his inhumanity” what is my answer expected to be? I am diametrically opposed to your foolish, naive, and dangerous ideas. Those very ideas are what led the Cardinal of Cuba to urge Batista not to execute him in 1954 — a grave error committed in the name of “humanity” and “compassion.”

    Not only do I consider it foolish, I think it is criminal to allow such as fidel or any other terrorist an opportunity to strike again. You, I’m afraid, are cut from the same cloth as all the other appeasers who fear becoming what they behold.

    My philosophy is simple and direct: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

    Any other questions?

  13. i’ve been reading all your comments about babalu and val…HEY VAL…DONT WORRY ABOUT THIS PEOPLE,LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DESEASE,AND ON TOP OF THAT..NO SENSE OF HUMOR..OHHH…MUNDO CRUEL..!!!!

  14. Comments like…

    George: “And I also called you a ‘moonbat’ and a “kool-aid drinker” based directly on the words you wrote. No other guide was given me: you wrote moonbat claptrap, I called you a moonbat. If these ‘names’ offend you, then change your idiotic, leftist point of view and you won’t have to suffer the indignity of being called these horrible, horrible names anymore.”

    Are why I don’t identify with “real” Cubans. Christ on a crutch. I could go on all day, like my father warning me the LA Times was brainwashing me for describing Carriles as a terrorist instead of a freedom fighter, but the bottom line is conservative Cubans are filled with so much vitriol the herd mentality set in years ago and crystallized to the point where, generations later, we spend more time stigmatizing moderate to liberal Cubans who don’t extol their conservative brothers’ obsession with Fidel. It doesn’t make conservatives look tough. It just makes them look neurotic and excitable. When I ran into this site I expected more.

  15. Ziva,
    SNL is a scripted show intended to attract viewers to a network, it’s may draw most of it’s material based upon real life, but it’s all done for ratings. If I called you an “arrogant bitch” without telling you that I heard it on the Mencia show, would you really take it as a joke?
    And exactly who is it that you are refering to when you say “we should lighten up?”

    It could be “funny as hell on SNL,” but I know for a fact that I don’t live in SNL, I live on planet earth in real time.

  16. Of course he’s right about Carriles being a freedom fighter, Ziva. It’s just like calling someone you disagree with an ignorant slut in a public forum. Neither evinces a lapse of judgment.

  17. Lesly, did you even read what she wrote that elicited my response? Thought not.

    I’m sorry to disappoint you. I’ll try to be more like you in my next life as a tofu cook in LA.

    (P.S., if you read the LA Times, then you have a good head-start on your own moonbat degree.)

  18. So you live on planet Earth in real-time, eh? That makes us, what, CaCubano? Delusional? Insane? Splain, please.

  19. OK, here goes so that everybody understands: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE, A FUNNY LINE THAT ANYBODY WHO EVER SAW SNL WOULD REMEMBER. For Christ’s sake, I know you libs are humorless, dense and obtuse, but this is getting ridiculous.

  20. Moneo: “Lesly, did you even read what she wrote that elicited my response? Thought not.”

    Why would I need to? Name calling makes it so much easier to identify the weak link.

    Moneo: “P.S., if you read the LA Times, then you have a good head-start on your own moonbat degree.)”

    Right-o. And those who read The Weekly Standard, Michelle Malkin, and RedState.org have the truth and the American way. Sloganeering does not become anyone, Moneo. Even you. Practice making arguments, then try addressing someone.

  21. Hey cacabano, if the shoe fits….I’ve been called much much worse than “arrogant bitch”, so how I would react would depend on the context. Lesley, ditto what George said.

  22. Lesly, I read National Review, not The Weekly Standard. I do read Michelle Malkin daily. She is balm against the constant idiocy I hear from the MSM. I also read Slate, The New Republic, JihadWatch, watch Fox News, and I listen (and subscribe) to Glenn Beck’s and Rush Limbaugh’s radio shows.

    Any other questions?

    (P.S., what should I address you as? Q.o.t.M.?)

  23. This is exactly the childish mentality that most were bringing up. I find something funny, so if it’s offenive, who cares, cause to me it’s funny so to hell with everyone else who doesn’t see it my way.

    Amazing.

    And this is the type of leadership and mentality that’s supposed to be a catalyst for change in Cuba? Do yourselves a favor and keep watching SNL.

  24. George,

    What really makes you so bitter inside man? What happened to you in your past? You give the impression that your so full of anger and hate. Why is that George? Why do you attack those with different points of views? Why do you alienate yourself from those who also want for change to occur in Cuba and would love to see freedom come to Cuba sooner rather than later? What’s your story?

  25. Cacubano, I am not politically correct. I say whatever the fuck I want to say when I want to say it. If you are offended, then, as Val says, press the back button. Better yet, cover your wittle eyes so you won’t have to read what the mean man is writing…

  26. Are you a therapist now? Jesus, what is it with you people? Did I imply that I actually give a shit what you think? If I did, I’m sorry for for the misunderstanding. Here, buy a vowel to make me feel better:

    G_ F_CK Y__RS_LF.

  27. And so to answer your question Val, “why I and this blog are a detriment to the freedom of Cuba.”

    You don’t have to look far at all. George just answered your question.

    You may want to say whatever you want, whenever you want, but I would like to suggest you may, as a person living in the United States of America at the present time and not in Cuba, read up on
    Mr. Henry Clay and his ability to compromise. Because if you have the ability to say whatever the “fuck” you want to say, you should expect others to do the same, and all you’ll end up doing is going round and round in circles.

    And if Val did say in other post to “press the back button”, then that goes to show that no one runing this blog site is capable of accepting other points of view, which then makes this blog site a baston of hypocrisy and not an affective tool for change no matter what you think.

    Case Closed.

  28. Cacabano, what you don’t seem to get is that this is Val’s blog, it’s private property and you are his guest. This is not a public forum and you have no free speech rights here beyond what he finds acceptable. That’s simple blog etiquette, one does not tell the editor what he should or should not post. Babalu is his platform, not yours. He chooses the content; it’s not about whether or not other points of view are allowed here. You are free to subscribe to any point of view you like, but that doesn’t mean you have the right to take up space here expressing it. Should we let someone come here and praise fidel and communism or any of a thousand other possible topics? Then it wouldn’t be Babalu. Most blogs express a point of view and most editors keep the comments on topic. If you want a blog that’s an open forum about Cuba, you are free to start one.

  29. One of the reasons for Babalu Blog’s existence is to inform people, who wouldn’t otherwise, have access to news about Cuba. Those of you who found issue with Val’s posting of October 6, 2006: “What would you say if I told you fidel castro was dying, right now – October 6, 2006, 1:11 pm – at the fourth floor, ward G, of the CIMEQ hospital in Havana?” should have asked first how was it that Val was privy to such an important bit of information. Instead, Val was criticized, he was given a cyberspace “meeting de repudio,” he was sent insulting emails, and overall, his integrity and that of this blog was questioned.

    Well, just so everyone knows, Val and several thousand other people (including myself) heard this important bit of information on Thursday, October 5, 2006 at 8:30p on AmericaTEVE’s “A Mano Limpia” by non other than Delfin Fernandez, former Cuban spy who spent 15 years working for the Cuban Counterintelligence Department. Next time please, before shooting from the hip, ASK!

    Several years ago, when I was still attending university, one of my former very liberal professor, made the statement that Cuban-American’s children should leave their parents and go to university on the West Coast to get away from “all the Cuba influence.” It seems that he was right!

  30. I’ll say what I feel. I really feel this blog for the most part is tolerant of most viewpoint, until someone decides to spout leftist caca – such as the so-called embargo being the cause of Cuba’s ills, or stating that GWB is the evil in Iraq and not al-qaeda or the terrorist, or it would have been better with Saddam, etc.

    Exchange of ideas, of course! Trying to force bullcrap on us, NO!

  31. With all the leftist trash spouted all over the World…I consider the unbending position on this blog as a bit of balance. As Rush Limbaugh says “This is equal time!”

  32. now,in our mother/bitch language,i mean,spanish/cuban language…..Caballeria..relajense..a ver,este blog es uno de los mejores del planeta,hecho por cubanos,porque entonces tanto lio..si..ya se que algunos cubanos tienen menos “humor” que otros,si..ya se que algunos cubanos son mas “ligeros” que otros,bueno,asi somos,de todo un poco,pero creo que no beneficia a nadie el estar ofendiendonos,AL FINAL,ESPERO Y CREO QUE LA MAYORIA SI NO TODOS,ESTAMOS EN FAVOR DE CUBA LIBRE,Y QUE EL CASTRADO SE VAYA PA’L INFIERNO,asi que las semanticas ideoligcas de conservadores y liberales,pasenla pa’un segundo plano..o sea..nadie es perfecto en este mundo,si..ya se que algunos somos mas perfectos que otros por que tenemos la ventaja no ser liberales…pero ..heyyyy….hay que tener compasion con el “proximo”.digo..el projimo..o el primo …quien sabe..FINALIZO CON UN LEMA MUY FAMOSO,Y LIBERAL…PEACE AND LOVE….pa’que despues no digan los libs que no los tengo en cuenta..

  33. Obervation from the west coast

    Val hides under his desk when the bombs are thrown in this blog?

    A Lib a Conservative mismo perro con diferente collar

    It’s humorous to call someone a liberal slut, a moonbat, a fool when they don’t agree with you.

    When you can’t defend your point of view, minimize your opponent by calling him/her names

    Some prefer to be village idiot than fools

    I don’t agree with your views, but i’ll have cuban coffee with you.

    Kind Regards

    ray

  34. ray,

    I ahvent forgotten to respond to you nor am I hiding under a desk. Im actually pretty damned hungover and swamped at the office right now and will get to these responses as soon as I can.

  35. Interesting everything and the kitchen sink but the main topic Castro that is either dead or dying in Havana is not going to go away

  36. “Cubans are filled with so much vitriol the herd mentality set in years ago and crystallized to the point where, generations later, we spend more time stigmatizing moderate to liberal Cubans who don’t extol their conservative brothers’ obsession with Fidel. It doesn’t make conservatives look tough. It just makes them look neurotic and excitable.”–Lesly

    Can we please add “vitriolic”, “crystallized herd mentality”, “obsessive”, “neurotic” and “excitable” to the “RECALCITRANT!” t-shirt design?

  37. Ziva,
    I do understand that this is Val’s blog, and as such, if he wishes only to have certain view on his blog pubished, he should make this blog site private, and only let those with his views allowed to enter. This is not private property like you say because if it was, it would be private and you would need an invitation to enter. A blog site, once it is created and placed on the internet is PUBLIC DOMAIN, anyone knows that.

    What does it say for those of you who claim that you have Cuba’s best interest at heart? That you have to agree with everything that you want to hear and belive and if you don’t then your some type of trouble maker who like you say will disrespect and is not informative on the current issues like yourself. That is exactly what fidel did back in the 1960’s and you guys can’t see for the love of God that you are now doing to other’s what was done to your families back then.

    Make this a private blog, ask people what their view on Cuba and what American policies should be so you can all have the same mentality and live your happy lives. The intolerance that is practiced here is no different than the intolerance that is practiced there or anywhere else for that matter.

    Whoever comes into this blog site to praise fidel, those are the ones who should not have the right to place not one word on this blog site. At all for that matter let them spread there crap elsewhere. But damn, when someone says, You know what, maybe we should look at other ways to topple fidel by lifting the embargo and taking a different route, that is not disrespect, that is trying to think and work outside the box. That thinking is not allowed here under any circumstance.

    What is it that you want in a post fidel Cuba? A place where everyone has to have the same views just because you think it is correct? That’s Cuba now, and you know what? It does’t work. Thats what it seems when you guys can not accept different points of views on this blog site.

    And once again, we are in the U.S.A. and not Cuba. We live in a free society where we can like, George said, say whatever we want whenever we want. As the internet is a public domain, if someone like George can place their views on this blog site, then others should be able to do the same without name calling from both sides. Once that is the case, then this blog site will become more valid for the case for informing others to the realities of Cuba.

  38. To answer your question George,
    When I was a child, I would watch Wheel of Fortune. Now as an adult, I mainly read books. Opps, that’s something that liberals do too much right?

  39. Ziva: “Cacabano, what you don’t seem to get is that this is Val’s blog, it’s private property and you are his guest. This is not a public forum and you have no free speech rights here beyond what he finds acceptable. That’s simple blog etiquette, one does not tell the editor what he should or should not post.â€?

    Yes, this is true. Just as it is true for the Sun Sentinel. However, the Sun cared enough about its reputation to nix racist comments even though the newspaper didn’t have to. Insulting people for their differences of opinion instead of their race isn’t okay and Fidel’s crimes doesn’t give anyone, especially a contributor if you think this site is worth a damn, an excuse to mouth off. If contributors to the blog are in agreement and they can’t stand the thought of a dissenter blaming the embargo in any way, shape or form, then screen comments so you can censure ideas incompatible with your own. Censure does not sound like a good word, but it’s better than Moneo throwing a tantrum and undermining your message in the process.

  40. CACUBANO,

    You have absolutely no concept of “public domain” whatsoever.

    And let me let you in on a little secret: you are not the first person to come to this blog with the “lift the embargo” argument. Nor have you offered anything new that we havent already heard, discussed, debated and debunked, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Do us all a favor and at least read the archives of this blog before you come here with such inane and scurrilous accusations.

    You are quite late to the party, my friend.

  41. Val

    Why don’t create some rules for posting in your blog, I would sugest you start with no name calling and disrespect allowed. If someone violates that rule then you simply remove that entry from the blog.

    You started this blog entry by stating that people are shitting in your house. You need to potty train your visitors man. Give us some rules!

    ray

  42. Ray,

    Let’s say I invite you over to my home for a get together. How would you act or behave there? I dont think we should expect anything less from each other than the same respect we would pay each other if we were visita at our homes.

  43. Val

    We finally agree on something. But you know what, i would expect everybody that comes and visit me to respect my house by respecting one another and don’t make a secene, that’s call civility.

    You are allowing your guests in both sides of the discussion to act uncivilized. As the owner of this blog you need to take charge and set and enforce the rules

    It seems to me that we should be able to disagree on issues and yet respect one another.

    That’s all my saying, maybe is just a west coast thing with me

    ray

  44. Ray,

    unfortunately, its impossible for me to police every single comment in every single thread on this blog. That’s why we implemented the comment registration some months back.

    Trust me, what you have seen here in these few threads is nothing compared to some of the vile that has been thrown at us here before.

  45. When I saw there were 51 comments, I decided to nuke some popcorn, get comfy and enjoy the read. Val and gang, I must preface with the fact that I enjoy your blog and give you a great deal of credit for a highly informative and non-sensational news outlet.

    I do think that you were hypersensitive to the very first comment and it appears to have snowballed to this. If that was your intent. Cool. If not, then IMHO you have to develop a thicker, tougher skin in this blogging bidness. You are doing an awesome job, you don’t need to expain yourself over and over. Some of your compadres are a little loose with the foul language and insults and that lowers the discourse of your blog. Just my 2 cents. Viva Cuba Libre.

  46. na’..que esto se e’ta poniendo como el solar del reberbero..calenton..pero entretenido..en fin,yo al menos trate a ver si la gente baja los humos..pero na’ de na’..y pa’colmo estos libs con falta de humor y algo altera’itos por los temblores de tierra en “west coast”,quizas lo que ellos quieren es levantar el “embargo” al speed limit en california..instead of 55 m/hour..maybe 80,como las demas ciudades normales de este pais,na’..ya me aleje del topico,era pa’ver si todos,quiero decir..todos los libs,van relajandose..y se toman un cafecito,y esas cosas…by the way…im writing in spanish/cuban,if libs dont like it..please let me know and i’ll go back to shakespeare’s language..aunque lo maltrato un poco,al menos hare el intento..y yo aqui..tomandome un cuba libre….ahhh..la vida misma..

  47. Erica,

    Thank you for you kind and gracious comment. I can see where you might think I was “hypersensitive” to this because I deleted a couple of comments that were what really put me off.

    And yes, some of my compadres do tend to fly off the handle at times.

  48. Val,

    Since I was specifically named (and maligned) in some of the posts by the “fire breathers” I took a chance that your inquiry was genuine, and provided my thoughts in response to your initial post last night (“I’m Back – Up dated”). At that time you seemed impatient to discuss and clarify this issue promptly, I quote: “Let’s go. Time’s a wasting.”

    But, I have not received a response to my comments. None is really needed. But, I do want to know whether respectful dissent is welcomed here. I would like your take on this issue.

    It seems clear that some of your compadres do not appreciate a genuine difference of opinion, and do not know how to properly react to it. But, I have not heard from you.

    Respectfully,

  49. All,

    Should we be more “tolerant”? I would say yes, but to a point. We (us Cubans living in America) and ESPECIALLY in Miami or South Florida) have been seen so much bullcrap first hand, through will full slander to just simple ignorance. The left has repeated the same lies over and over again until SOME think its the truth. Lies that the embargo (bloqueo) is somehow the cause of Cuba’s suffering. Lies that Bush is the real enemy and not the islamofascists.
    It’s hard to keep your patience when some individuals continue to ignore our warnings and first hand experience. What really enfuriates me are the people like Danny Glover and Harry Belafonte that have made a fortune here and yet speak out openly against our country and in favor of Cuba. Those same individuals call us, and Bush the terrorists. Some of those who post here (Jane?) claim to be for the freedom of Cuba, yet they come out and parrot the same thoughts as the Glovers and Belafonte about the United States. Iran is very tight with Chavez and Fidel. Iran is funding the insurgency in Iraq. Why the “Janes” of the world don’t see the connection and is infuriating to me.
    Wise up, get with the program, be reasonable, get educated on the facts and have some COMMON SENSE before you complain about the moderators here. It is hard enough fighting the MSM about the truth in Cuba, now this?

    Please.

  50. Max, thank you for your voice of reason. You comment encapsulates my anger and frustration with these people.

  51. Hey, Val, in this business, when people become rabid and attack you, it only means one thing: you’re on target and on the right track.

    So, be happy. No, be thrilled!

    Or like my grandma always said, “Consider the source.”

  52. I’m busy at work but here is a little of what I’d like to say:
    Respectfully, mi casa es su casa, but don’t come to my house and then tell me that this is a great place—but it’s not clean enough, or I don’t like your furniture, or your children are disrespectful, or that my cooking is bad. That is in effect what you have done. Like Val said, you are very late to the conversation here and if you’d thoroughly read through the archives you’d know that and wouldn’t be wasting our time with the same tired old arguments that offer nothing new. Val said some of us fly off the handle sometimes; I freely admit to being one of those. As for what I want for Cuba, I want a freely elected democracy, with all rights returned to the people. I want an end to the nightmare, and I want it soon, so those who are still with us and old enough to have experienced the real Cuba, the Cuba before BC, can at least know she is free again.

  53. Ray,

    I was born and raised in the “Oh Si” so I can understand what you mean by being removed from the Miami community, but I still feel strongly about everything going on over there. So how is it that being on the West Coast makes you feel differently about what’s happening? Is it that you’ve fallen victim to the Hollywood propaganda? Or is it that you haven’t met any balseros who can tell you what life in Cuba today is really like? I don’t understand how you could possibly disagree with Val just because you’re a West Coaster. Let’s go have a cafe and you can enlighten me (and please don’t take that the wrong way, I’m extremely interested in differing opinions and how they came about).

    Personally, I found the “what would you say” post thought provoking and interesting. Gracias Val. QUE VIVA CUBA LIBRE!

    Amy

  54. well…hip..despue’ de tre’ cubalibres..el poco ingles mio se ha “alejado” de mi..so,seguire en el querido idioma del manco de lepanto..Cervantes,pa’los que no conozcan…quizas esos del “wet coat”,or “west coast”..viven un poco lejos de miami,donde llegan los balseros que llegan vivos,donde viven la mayoria de los que han sufrido,los que se han jodido,los que ven a diario la porqueria de lo que queda del sistema cubano,ya que estan solo a 90 millas,donde viven los hijos,los nietos de todos esos que salieron de cuba hace no se ni cuanto..quizas por la lejania…por el poco contacto humano,no de info,no de noticias,pero quizas por la falta de ese contacto humano con todo lo que llega de la isla,esos que no viven en miami,vean todo este problema de cuba un poco mas..hmm..superficialmente??..o quizas no les llega tan hondo como a los que residen en miami,en fin..las razones son miles..pero el sentido comun creo que viene en los genes humanos,o algo de eso,deberian de usarlo mas frecuentemente,asi llegarian al punto de convertirse en conservadores..ohh..les suena a mala palabra??..si..pero es tan rico..y despues lo mezclan con havana club,del que venden en miami..ahhh..la vida misma..

  55. Hello Amy

    You are breath of fresh air, finally someone that interested in someone elses viewpoint.

    What I mean by being in the west coast, is that cuban americans in miami are in constant discussion about the cuban issues, here in that’s not the main focus. Miami is Cuba in the USA. Just from reading this blog it seems like if you don’t follow a certain way of thinking you are not accepted, you are labeled a pinko commie or a gusano or a cubana arrepentido.

    Here in California we tend to follow a liberterian point of view, live and let live, we seem to be more open about different ideas and political views, some of you call it liberal, we calll it indepedent/liberterian, after all we voted our democratic governor out office.

    So when i’m looking at cuban issues, i have liberterian ( not liberal ) perspective. i don’t bring any passion or revenge or sense of justice into the mix i try to see both sides and make a rational decision.

    My hope for this blog is that we can get to the point where we can debate the ideas not the person behind the idea.

    Anyway that’s my westcoast 2.cents

    Kind Regards

    ray

  56. Ray,

    Glad I could help clear the air, but I don’t think we’re totally clear yet. I agree, we don’t always talk about Cuba over here, until someone finds out I’m Cuban and then they start in with their questions about what I think of Fidel. From where I’m sitting it sounds like you think it’s wrong for the Miami Cubans to talk about Cuba . . . is that the case? They’re 90 miles away from it so if Iran ends up getting the nuclear missles there, the Miami Mafia will be the first to go.

    My experience here on the West Coast is that the same thing happens over here, but with different groups. Mexicans are talking about Obrero and Calderon, Palestineans are always talking about what Bush has done to make their plight worse and if you cross them you’re labeled a Jew or a Zionist. And we let everyone talk about what’s going on in their homeland, so why should it be different for the people in Miami?

    Are you saying you don’t want a Free Cuba? That the Castros should stay in power forever? What is your opinion that it is so different? You just don’t subscribe to the death of a dictator? That’s fine, you don’t have to want him dead, but at least out of power, no? The “other side” is that these people have been through so much pain, why begrudge them the expression of it? As Cubans ALL of our lives would be drastically different if things had gone differently back in 1959, so you may not want to punch his aliveness, but at least accept that as a natural reaction for others. (I haven’t been able to find your original comment – sorry)

    Granted, I doubt I’d punch him either, but I wouldn’t try to stop someone who did.

    I’m sorry Ray, I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from, but I still don’t get it. Maybe I’m just too blond? 😉 What’s the idea? I’ll debate it with you . . .

  57. Ray,

    I wasn’t specifically talking about YOU in my previous post. I really don’t know what your positions are or why you feel this blog is not open to discussion.

    I’d like to hear it. Be specific. If you’re going to tell me Fidel’s system is better than the US, that he has a great health care system, or we should be out of Iraq and left Saddam in power or that we are psychotic over Fidel, we definately won’t agree, to put it mildly.

  58. Hi Amy

    Let me summarize my ideas and i hope the bomb throwers allows us to dicusss this

    1) First of all i respect everybodys right to have an opinion and i hope that’s mutual. I have nothing agains Val or Blog or his contributors. If you scan postings you will that i have acted respectfully towards everybody here. I understand the pain and suffering mr castro has brought to everbody in the cuban american community and I’m not insensitve to any of that.

    2) Regarding Fidel and His Clan. Any goverement that opresses people right to free expression and freedom of movement is not a good goverment

    3) Wanting Fidel to die. Something about wishing people to be dead is not a good idea by me. That’s bad Karma

    4) Freedom for Cuba, i think that’s up to the people that live there to decide and fight for it ( Thtat’s the liberterian in me ). As an american i want my government to stay of other countries affairs. They don’t seem to have good record on this recently.

    5) Embargo a 30+year old idea that has not worked. Let’s open it up. New thinking will bring new energy into the island. If we can trade with vietnam, china, russia why not cuba.

    6) Elian Saga. Here’s a good one a boy belongs with his father and should not be used for political machinations on either side

    7) Cuban Americans political influencing our goverment decisions. I see myself as an american of cuban descent as opposed to a Cuban American. My priority is here in america this where my roots are where my family lives, this where i pay my taxes, this the country i belong to, so i assimilate and blend in. I’m all for the common good. Now that doesn’t mean that i have to forget my culture that will always be with me.

    8) The main difference for us here in the west coast is that we are removed from the constant cuban dialog, so the noise level about is not as intense as in miami, we have some space where we can think this issues. I imagine that if i lived in miami my views would somewhat different, since i would be influenced by what goes on there. All politics are local aren’t they

    Good talking with you. Where in the west coast do you live?

    ray

  59. Ray,

    See any credibility you may have had or any attempt at reasoned debate fell by the wayside with this statement:

    Let me summarize my ideas and i hope the bomb throwers allows us to dicusss this

    In all honesty, just from reading that first sentence in all its condescension i want to tell you to go fuck yourself. How dare you make such an arrogant implication with such undeniable hubris?

    I wont address any other of your bullet points save for these:

    5) Embargo a 30+year old idea that has not worked. Let’s open it up. New thinking will bring new energy into the island. If we can trade with vietnam, china, russia why not cuba.

    Please explain how the embargo has not worked. Please explain, in detail, how opening it up will foster change use real data and please cite historical references and proof. Please explain where and how all this new thinking is going to come from that will bring about all this new energy. And since when do three or four wrongs make a right, re: trading with China, vietnam, etal?

    6) Elian Saga. Here’s a good one a boy belongs with his father and should not be used for political machinations on either side

    perhaps living over on the west coast, you didnt get the news that elian’s father did in fact want the boy to stay here originaly, a fact that has been reported by certain sources at INS and which led to the resignation of quite a few cuban_american journalists from the Miami herald for the Heralds refusal to run the story and its buckling to the Clinton administration.

    Do me a favor, if you want to have reasoned discussion and debate, first, cut out the snide little remarks like “bomb throwers,” they make you look like an arrogant fool, at best, and second at least have a hint of knowing what youre talking about.

    if you make one more slight like the first line on this comment, I will ban you, just like I would have tossed you out of my house on your ass if youd have done it in my home.

  60. Val

    Your reply is a classic and frames it all up for me. Don’t worry about me comming to your house anymore i’m moving uptown.

    Regards

    Ray

  61. Ray

    Let me discuss with you some points that you make

    3) Wanting Fidel to die. Something about wishing people to be dead is not a good idea by me. That’s bad Karma
    Even the Dalai Lama wants the Chinese that destroyed its people and culture dead. Criminals should be tried and executed.

    4) Freedom for Cuba, i think that’s up to the people that live there to decide and fight for it ( Thtat’s the liberterian in me ). As an american i want my government to stay of other countries affairs. They don’t seem to have good record on this recently.

    It is up to all Cubans inside and outside the island to fight for the freedom of Cuba. It is our duty as Cubans living in free country to help Cuba be free. We do not want the US goverment to fighta war in Cuba we just want the chance of doing it ourselves, because Cubans in the island are powerless against a goverment that holds all the weapons. Remenber that we are dealing with monsters here and that Ghandi only won against the English because they were civilized people, let him try that with Muslins or Comunists he would not last one minute. Also refresh your american history, Cubans helped the US with money and soldiers in the Independence War.

    5) Embargo a 30+year old idea that has not worked. Let’s open it up. New thinking will bring new energy into the island. If we can trade with vietnam, china, russia why not cuba.

    The embargo was put in place not because tof Cuba being a communist state it was put in place because the Cuban Goverment nationalized all private properties and took money and properties from US companies. Also there is only an embargo betwwen the Cuban goverment and its people even that peanut head of Jimmy Carter said tCuba trades with the restvof the world and the embargo is just a front to keep Cubans busy hating someone else. Cuba is Russia, Viet Nam or China. we do not want our people to be slaves, they need to be free, they need to be able to have private property and have the goverment respect it. the people in above mentioned countries are nothing but slaves with some food in the pantry but slaves nevertheless.

    6) Elian Saga. Here’s a good one a boy belongs with his father and should not be used for political machinations on either side.

    Elian does not belong to his father, he belongs to Castro. This may seem ridiculous to some living in the state, but when in Cuba you have no saying on the future of your children. Take ftrom someone that left cuab by himself at 14 and left everything beehing even his parents for a chance in freedom.

    7) Cuban Americans political influencing our goverment decisions. I see myself as an american of cuban descent as opposed to a Cuban American. My priority is here in america this where my roots are where my family lives, this where i pay my taxes, this the country i belong to, so i assimilate and blend in. I’m all for the common good. Now that doesn’t mean that i have to forget my culture that will always be with me.

    I am so glad that we are able to influence American Politics because that shows you thow far and how much we love this country taht we are inside its politics to prevent somnething like in Cuba happens here. Same reason why we are not Viet Nam, Russia or China Cubams are different in the fact that we are exiles and just because we live here paid our taxes and love the States but know that we came no like the early immigrants that quickly dissolve in the American culture we are Cuban Americans and want the best for both countries.

    8) The main difference for us here in the west coast is that we are removed from the constant cuban dialog, so the noise level about is not as intense as in miami, we have some space where we can think this issues. I imagine that if i lived in miami my views would somewhat different, since i would be influenced by what goes on there. All politics are local aren’t they.

    You maybe right, over there you have plenty of space between the heads of the socialists, hippies, tree huggers and fustrated actors and intelectuals that living on your side of the country.

    Respectfuly

  62. ray,

    I have been courteous and respectful towards you as this thread proves. if you cant except the fact that I took offense to your “bomb throwers’ comment, meant entirely in a derrogatory manner and with clear arrogance, then I dont know what else to tell you.

    Either way, it does give you a convenient out to not have to further expound on your “theories.”

    Again, I think I have been respectful towards you in this thread and only expected the same from you. the bomb throwers remark – the second time today that you have made it (I opted to ignore it the first time) – was totally out of line. if you will read the last 15 or so comments on this thread you will note that NOONE, NOONE, was attacking you or anyone else. Sometimes, even if your preconceptions may have a relatively factual basis, it is better for all involved, yourself included, to stick to the point and avoid the mischaracterizations.

  63. Ray,

    I’m going to have to side with Val on this one. Elian shouldn’t have been sent back. I knew that all the way from stuck-up Southern Orange County. The embargo has worked as well as it could. And “bomb-throwers” was uncalled for. C’mon Ray, what happened to civilized debate without name calling?

    And like I said, if you were a Mexican living here in SoCal, you’d be talking about the 700 miled fence all the time. Yeah, it’s location, but there’s a pride that comes with your heritage, pride that your parents seemed to have forgetten to teach you.

    Ray, I’m 23 and I live in SoCal. Yes, I have the required Che shirt, one with a big X over his face. I should be the ideal independent-liberal, no? And yet here I am, siding with the Miami Cubans. Too bad you don’t get it, they’re great people.

  64. “Ouch! That hurt! Hey, no one enjoys being criticized! Yet, if you want to succeed in this blogging world, you’ve got to overcome all your natural instincts and actively seek out feedback, good and bad. You should embrace and value criticism. Another thing Name-Calling. Come On, people are we in Junior High School. I am speculating that everyone here is an adult with a balance attitude. Be more considerate of each other’s opinions. I mean damn, if the blogger owner is going to act like an irresponsible human being, his flock will follow. Is your responsibility as the host of this blog to show your readers “LEARDERSHIP”.Let me be clear, Those of us who use facts instead of rant; reason and argument instead of name-calling and personal attacks; evidence instead of intimidation and accusations of disloyalty — we have the moral authority to tell Val and his supporters that their comments were out of line. I’m glad we are fighting for such a good cause in this screw-up world of negativity. I think we could get a lot done if we worked together instead of acting like disgruntled Postal Employees. I mean we already have Castro’s puppets clawing at us with bullshit propaganda and other make believe stories about how wonderful Cuba is. I, for one don’t feel like being torn to shreds for my opinions. Instead of bashing each other on the net, about who is ignorant, how everyone can work together to resolve the issues facing the Cuban community it is for this reason that we need to have a higher appreciation for each others moral values it’s about learning and growing together; it’s about supporting each other’s dreams; …

  65. Ray,

    You are a hypocrite. You ask that we refrain from “name-calling” and the first thing you do is just that. You can not only go “uptown” but to hell.

    I was looking forward to a better answer from you. I have the come to the conclusion that YOU are the intolerant one. All of your tired arguments have been dissected thouroughly over and over again on this blog as bogus. I know this is frustrating to have your beliefs blow up in your face but you should have been gracious.

    Just stay in denial. I won’t even dignify with a response to your weak arguments that others here have alresdy done.

  66. Hellraiser,

    We have our core beliefs that we have learned through much suffering and specifically the “hard way”. Imagine trying to justify Hitler to the jews, or to not want to kill him in the worst way?

  67. Val et al

    I apoligize by the bombthrower comment, it was intended as metaphoor for being personally bombarded with attacked. OReilly always uses that term in his program, i can see you may have taken it the wrong way. Again i apoligize if hurt any of your precious egos.

    regarding the other items i gave you my honest opinion and it’s just that my opinion on how i see things. see guys here in america there’s this thing call freedom of expression, it’s a good thing. i’ll be happy to discuss any of it in a civlized manner but from the tone of most recents posts i don’t think that will be possible.

    you guys have wonderfull life there in south florida

    ray

  68. Ray, I too live in Southern California, location is no excuse for ignorance. It seems you only embrace the parts of your Cuban heritage that fit neatly into your assimilated life and politics. There is no debatable issue regarding Elian or whether or not castro and his henchmen are evil and deserve the worst possible punishment. You said any government that denies its citizens rights is a bad government. Bad? Is that the best adjective you can come up with to describe 47 years of executions, imprisonment, torture and slavery? Do you even know the truth about castro’s Cuba or what Cuba BC was like? Do you know that Cuba is on the list at Genocide Watch? Have you read the reports on Cuba at Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the US State Department? You said you wanted repsectful debate and you demand civility from us and then insult us. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  69. Ray,

    there you go again with your stereotypical innuendo. Look, just because I am a conservative, that doesnt mean that Im a fan of OReilly.

    Noone is infringing upon your freedom of expression and no one taking away your right to opine. I called you out for the bomb throwers comment specifically, because it is the exact same type of comment that fidel castros government uses to discredit his detractors and you, by making said comment not only insult those of us who arent “bomb throwers” but further the stereotype and propaganda.

    Feel free to respond to my questions on the embargo.

    Cuban hell Raiser,

    Um, can you point to one instance where I have called someone names in this post or the other related entry? I appreciate your advice on how to succeed in this blogging business, i guess Ive been doing this all wrong these past three years and the over one million visitors and 2500 daily unique visitors must have all gotten here by mistake. I will state once again as I did in the sheesh post, this is my blog and I decide what gets published. You decide whether or not to read it.

  70. Amy

    You are in orange county, i’m in riverside county. i don’t know you came to the conclusion that i don’t have pride in my heritage. Do you think that have to agree politically with the folks here to be proud my heritage.

    ray

  71. Everyone should take pride in themselves, and present themselves to the world with a good, positive attitude. However, there is a difference between being proud and being cocky and conceited. Conceit is like having a big blemish on your face; it does stand out, but the attention that a person receives may be for his bad manners, not his looks. However, a good, healthy and proud attitude in the way you carry yourself can take a person far. Val once again your defense mechanism is in full alert. Try to be less defensive about things relax hermano. I am not attacking your goal of achieving a million readers. I do applaud you for making your blog a success and having articulate people reading it. But I wasn’t attacking your credibility in any form or shape. Only stating that we as human being should have total control of our actions not to be smearing anybody or attacking someone else character. Conceit is not attractive, and being cocky is downright tacky.

  72. Val

    I gave you my apolgy, what do you want from me, blood or tears. I now see how that was offensive to you and your friends, ok it was an insesitive thing to say in part. Your friends have call me a hyproicrit, a fool, a commie, a leftie, a liberal, so much love from them towards me but that’s ok!

    As far as oreilly, what i meant was that he uses the bombthrower comment all the time and that’s where picked it up from. NOthing to do with you being conservative. No double meaning or malicia, I don’t know if you watch oreilly, nor do i care if you do.

    As far as the emargo, it just my not political opinion, it seems to me that after 30+years castro has survided despite of it, the people that are really afffected by this are the common folks that live in the island. I’just don’t see how it’s been an effective policy.

    ray

  73. I see an absolutely hostile attitude here. Try to control that confrontation-provoking behavior because that type of attitude hardly works with me. I rather have a civil adult conversation without mud smearing. I will not be bullied, suckered into stupid arguments, insulted or give you the satisfaction of reacting to that immature behavior. Let me make this clear Val I am not attacking your character only stating. I know you are frustrated about all this people attacking your character but try to take a constrictive attitude. Take a deep breath and step back you might see things different.

  74. Ray, the west coast is not the laissez-faire (i.e., live and let live) paradise you describe as a backdrop/support for your comments. It’s a large place with ZILLIONS of problems brought about by 40+ years of liberalism in the halls of Sacramento. It’s a place undergoing a brain drain and massive exodus of natives unable to make an affordable living or raise their kids without fear. Save for communities to the north and center, I won’t repeat that it’s the cereal state, but I will remind you that IT IS the place where illegals raise the Mexican flag in a U.S. post office.

    Whereas the Cuban situation wouldn’t concern the folks on the west coast, it is a different story in Miami, and with the brain power posting on this blog, you need to research the comments a little better, because here people will hold your feet to the fire if you are uninformed. Not to discourage you, but to spur you to do the research and think through your position.

    The rest of the country, unfortunately, is not up to snuff on Cuba ….. that is WHY THIS BLOG EXISTS.

  75. Cubanhellraiser,
    I am speaking for myself, and not for Val, who really doesn’t need my help. You keep pressing a point that we are “hostile”, and “confrontation provoking, etc, etc.”

    We have a strong belief in our convictions through much pain and first hand experience. We base our beliefs on witnessing barbarity and human tragedy first hand.

    We know first hand how the regime and those who are his friends work, and try very hard to discredit our beliefs. When people here “parrot” much of the same things the regime or their willing accomplices state, we have no choice but to respond vigorously. No one is putting you in prison, no one is putting you up on the paredon, there are no rapid response brigades. You are here ON YOUR OWN FREE WILL!!!
    We ask that you don’t insult us trying to dispell FACTS with much of the crap the left has been trying to pass off as facts over the years. If you read the blog you will see this.
    Try going on a pro-jewish site and even try to excuse Hitler. Try going to a Afro-American site and try to even slightly justfify slavery. Elian belongs to his father? That is true in THE U.S., NOT IN CUBA!!
    Its bogus and ininformed beliefs like that that draw our ire.

  76. Val,
    I’m not late to the party, you just deleated most of my other post that I’ve made on this blogsite. Thank God for Oscar.

  77. Ray,

    You’re not coming off as interested in an informed debate, just sharing your opinion. What I meant about heritage is that I don’t understand how you could possibly feel the way you do if you knew the real story. Your feelings about Elian and the embargo show that you really are living in the West Coast bubble.

    Thanks Ziva and Gigi for driving home the point.

    My suggestion Ray is that you do a little more homework, then we can talk.

    P.S. I’m only 23 and I got the “Jane, you ignorant slut.” My dad and I are still laughing about it.

  78. Folks, there you have it: “Thank God for Oscar.” What a revealing statement. You thank God for a hack journalist who turns on his own and then you come here to criticize those of us who despise tyranny. Stay in California, dude. You are perfect for the left coast.

  79. Gigi

    California is where i have lived since 1966. I’m not trying to sell you or your friends on it, nor do i claim is a paradise or a better place to live. This is my frame of reference. If you read post you would see that i said if lived in Miami, i would probably have different views.

    I’m not a political idealogue and try to think critcally through the issues based on what i know and my own personal view on things. When i wrote my post i gave my opinion on the various cuban issues.

    Now live and let live has nothing to do with the live style here. What I meant to say is that i identify with a liberterian ( not liberal ) view of things, which basically say i will let you live your life as long as you let me live mine they way i see fit, the less can get the goverment involved out of our lives the better.

    We are looking at the same issues but through a different set of lenses

    If you guys don’t want to hear my rants or my views upset you and want me to stop posting, let me know i will move uptown to another blog. I’m willing to discuss any issues with any of you as long as we can be civil and refrain from personal attacks. I see that the are others here that have similar views to mine.

    ray

  80. Okay, I just read this entire thread. Here are my thoughts.

    To Ray and all the others who have been offended by some of the remarks posted here, it’s not hard to be a “dissenter” around these parts. You state your case with respect AND without being condescending. I’ve seen either or both of these rules violated repeatedly.

    Ray, you really want to come across as a nice, reasonable guy. You probably are as far as I can tell. Therefore, here’s a little friendly advice for you from a Miami Cuban-American: talking down to anyone, especially a Cuban-American, won’t win you any friends. It’s really that simple.

  81. Amy

    Opinions is all we have in this blog. Opinions are like noses we all have one.

    About elian i said “the boy belong with his father” where i’m going wrong with that type of thinking. i need to do homework to come to a more informed conclusion? What course should i take?

    What I’m missing here?

    ray

    PS/ you are 23 years old ok, not sure what you are trying to tell me there

  82. Ray (hemetero),

    I agree that we should be able to disagree with others as long as our disagreement remains respectful.

    My family escaped castro’s oppression in 1962. I was too young at the time.We lived in Miami for a few months and then move on … so like you and Amy, I did not grow up in the Miami, South Florida area either. However, I ‘m so glad that I found Babalu (and other similar blogs)… because I have been able to fill a “void”. Through these blogs, I have gained a better understanding of who I am today as a result of where I came from … this is food for my Cuban soul. Yes! I’m proud to be an American and don’t take any of our freedoms for granted. You mentioned that you see yourself as an American of Cuban descent, instead of a Cuban American. That’s your prerogative! I prefer to use Cuban American of Lebanese descent. Just be cautious as to how much “space” you keep between you and the reality of Cuba and those fellow Cubans who for one reason or another are still being denied the fundamental freedoms that so many take for granted. Sometimes too much “space” may result in unintended apathy … and that’s not good karma!

    I respect your opinion, although I disagree with your statements. For some reason, I perceive hesitation on your part on being straight forward on your points. Instead, I see a tendency to “beat around the bush”. I see this clearly in several statements, but here’a a good example:
    “As an american i want my government to stay of other countries affairs. They don’t seem to have good record on this recently.”

    I see that others addressed your points, so I’m not going to be redundant. I would only like to add something to the Elian issue … many have indeed forgotten that this child’s mother made the ultimate sacrifice for her son to live in freedom … how about that? Did she died in vain? … talking about “karma”, I can’t help to think that when we witness human injustices and remain as simple bystanders, we become “partners in crime”.

    Ray, you are entitled to your opinions as well as everyone in this blog, but don’t leave them inside a mental “lockbox”, because most of the staments you listed, can be refuted with facts. I understand that there are different personalities and styles in the writers who contribute to this blog. Sometimes, I see things a bit differently, and would consider a different approach, but like you stated, we are adults and it’s our choice to entertain all that’s commented here without having to accept it … when you learn some of the individual histories and ordeals experienced by some of these contributors and their families, you can understand where they are coming from. You may not totally agree, but you should understand and respect their positions.

    Val, there are too many of us out here who rely on your work to remain connected to our “Lost Country”. Keep it coming!

    I wish you well 🙂 Melek

    “I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.” ~ Abraham Lincoln

  83. Max

    Thank you for your Volunteer feedback but that statement was for Val, not you but you’re entitled to substitute for Val. I understand everything you said trust me I know all about Castro’s little puppets feeding us bullshit propaganda. Thank you for remind me. But moving along to better subjects, anybody cares to elaborate on a NEW TOPIC. Because this nip picky is getting old. Hmmm let me see. Oh okay “EMBARGO” What Embargo that’s another Joke, Please. What about North Korea Rocket Boy Kim Jong-Il what a crazy lunatic clown but very dangerous little guy Any Suggestion people?

  84. Melek

    My friend if you read my post you would see that i said i understand the pain that castro has brought to most of the people here including my own family. You will also see that i said i’m not insentive to that pain.

    Now those that mean that should give up my ability to reason things out and avoid having opinion.

    ray

  85. Robert

    I’m not trying to win any friends here. I naively thoght this was place where one could exchange freely ideas. After all we are american we love and respect freedom and democracy don’t we.

    But that’s ok, my skin is thick, i can take it. When val decides to kick me out of his house, i’ll move uptown

    ray

  86. Ray,

    What exactly have we been doing in this enormous thread other than exchanging ideas? It’s almost 11 PM here on the east coast, and you’re still here and posting. What’s the problem?

    Just let go of the fact that you’re going to get kicked out, and contribute with some intelligent comments. You’ve done it before, so then show us it can be done.

  87. Ray in case you haven’t noticed there are a number of other posts here at Bablu to comment on. You have an interest in N. korea? A post on that very subject was put up last night.

  88. Ray,

    Thanks for your comments. On the contrary Ray, opinions resulting from reasoning and careful consideration of facts are becoming “endangered” these days.
    If you read my comment carefully, you should see that I stated that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I also stated that the specific points you listed, could be easily and rationally refuted. You don’t have to rely solely on this blog, there are my sources that should assist you in reasoning and forming your opinions.
    The operative word here for all involved is “respect” … we can agree to disagree without having to relinquish respect!

    I wish you well! 🙂 Melek

    “If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.” ~ B. Russell

  89. Robert

    I was just replyng to your post Man. I’m a little reserved with my comments, with all the love that’s comming way recently i thought maybe i measure my aim.

    Here’s a question for you or whoever. Regarding the elian deal. Maybe someone can explain this to me, since i seem to be out in left field.

    What in our constitution gives our goverment the right to take that boy away from his father a foreign national. I see the elian deal as a family dispute and the father being the closest relative having the final say. This is my basic argument, where i’m going wrong? Let’s leave the politics out of this if we can

    ray

  90. Ray

    Oh, I’m just rambling here. Sorry. I’m in a rambling, dark mood jajajaja. Hey Ray everyone is entitle to their own opinions whether you agree with them or not–right? Right. Everyone says so. However, those of us who voice our opinions are the ones who get slapped down and talked about behind backs. Why? Why can’t we just listen to someone else’s opinion and have a constrictive feedback and say, “Okey dokey then. That’s great. Good for you.” AND THEN LEAVE IT!!! Don’t start this big, “Can you believe what he or she said?” or “I can’t believe you said that! How dare you!” It. Is. My. Opinion. LET ME HAVE IT!!! You can’t change how people think about you, or your work, or your clothes, etc… You need to learn how to let go and Move on. Otherwise you be 80 and still arguing about the same subject.

  91. CubanHR

    I hear you man. I’m a freedom loving person. You know one thing i learn about my cuban experience is the value of freedom and free speech, that’s why i’m suprised at all the love i’m getting here. I look at issues more philophically than politically so that’s probably why i’m not connecting with the folks here. Politics is just BS to me, a liberal, conservative a commie same thing, they all value their own ideology and you can always predict what they going to say, they all now how sing to their choir very predictable. Now Give me a an independent thinker and now we can have a discussion on the merits of any idea whether good or bad, we can learn something from one another and if we disagree we can still be friends.

    Hope i lighten up your day, a little west coast thinking comming your way. Life is Good!

    ray

  92. Ray

    Actually, Ray is pretty difficult not to involved politics in the Elian Case. Is like not wiping your ass after shitting jajajaja sorry, for that gross scenario. Elian was the best propaganda investment Cuba could make. I didn’t agree with the court decision denying Elian Gonzalez an asylum hearing? I think Janet Reno should be shot CLINTON “FULLY Supported” ELIAN REMOVAL Juan Miguel Gonzalez, was brainwashed by the Castro Regime Period. Elian Case was a very traumatic situation — but it touches a nerve in the Cuban Community that goes much deeper than that. Many people manipulated Elian Gonzalez.Not trying to change the subject but you were talking about Elian before just voicing my opinion.

  93. You know, I’m getting pretty fucking tired of these trolls using me as an example of some kind of anomaly on this blog. I am here because Val (and hopefully the other contributing writers) want my voice heard. One voice among seven. All of us are individuals with unique opinions but one overriding goal: to see the Cuban people freed of fidel’s rule. I’d also like to see the MF hanging from a lamppost in Havana upside-down like Mussolini (with Raulita next to him), but that’s me.

    That said, and against my editor’s wishes, let me heartily say FUCK YOU. I am tired of the circular bullshit you are expelling. Just say what you mean to say to me — directly and without equivocation — and let’s finish this discussion. Because, I swear to Jesus, I will ban all you again and delete every fucking piece of shit comment you’ve left. I’m sick to death of you trolls.

    You want to discuss? I’m here. Just be clear with your words and let’s finish this. I’ll even try to be civil if you wish.

    (And, please keep to the point: no “George is angry,” or “George is bitter,” or “George is profane” crap, OK? I don’t need psychoanalysis from a liberal. That’s too ironic even for me.)

  94. Ray, I’ll answer your question on one condition: Let’s get crackin’ on what you really want to say.

  95. After that outburst, maybe it’s time for the 7 to consider a different voice, one that can get the job done without such over the top, extreme views, having to throw a tirade like an uneducated juvenile. Even president Bush rearranged his cabnet.

  96. CaCubano, that was exactly what I expected of you. You’re a typical California lib. All talk, no balls. Suit yourself.

  97. George

    Here’s the deal, i trying to find something that we have common. I already know that we look a things differntly and trying to persuade to look at my view will be futile in my part. I have no bones to pick with you man. So i thought music might be a way to find a common ground.

    George i’m not your enemy, i was born cuba like you and experienced the same pain and frustrations you did. Somewhere along the line, i decided let it go to move on that’s where we are different.

    ray

  98. OK, Ray, here goes: mainly classical and opera, jazz (especially Bird, Diz, Sonny Stitt, Monk, Miles, Trane, and “cool” jazz masters from the 50s and 60s — Getz, Brubeck, Mulligan), and, of course, Cuban music from the 40s and early sextetos and septetos to danzones to son. Read this piece I wrote about Gottschalk and his influence in spreading Cuban music to the rest of the world.

  99. Forgot to add: Classic rock from the 70s and early 80s: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd (“Wish you were here” is, IMHO, the only unabashed musical masterpiece ever written in the rock genre), Hendrix, The Eagles, Bob Seger, The Police, etc.

  100. Ray,

    By sharing that I’m only 23 I was trying to point out that even being young and living on the opposite side of the country, I can relate to the people in Miami. I’m thrilled to have found Babalu and other like-minded blogs. My suggestion of you doing some homework was because I think you may change your opinion of Elian if you dug a little deeper. Just like you may view the embargo differently if you read a little more about it. That’s all.

    Val,
    If anything, this thread has been a great way to connect the East and West Coast and I can’t see how a Cuban Connection could ever be detrimental to the fight for freedom in Cuba. I’m grateful to have found your site and hope that soon you will get to write THE POST.

    Que Viva Cuba Libre!

    George,

    I think you’re hilarious. You’re so cool. I love how passionate you are. It’s awesome.

    Amy

  101. Hey George

    I don’t know how to break this to you man, we have something in common, we like the same type of music. Imagine that!

    Right now i’m to smoothjazz and cuban music.

    I’m not a politcal type, i know you think i’m liberal, i call myself liberterian. I just try to look at the card that life has dealt and try to examine the best way i can. I see how i have push the wrong buttons, there was no malice itended, i was just trying to give you guys my take on things.

    I’m checking out the piece you wrote on music

    ray

  102. Amy

    All i can say good for you! Is good to see young persons interested in this type of discussion.

    Like i told george, i have no bones to pick with anyone here. i look at issues from a different perspective, that my choice and that’s one of the rigths this country gives me, the freedom to express myself.

    ray

  103. Hey George

    I just finished reading the piece your wrote about cuban music. Wow! Good work! Very instructive. I always sense that NewOrleans and Cuba had something in common, your piece brought together for me.

    I now have a different sense about you man. Our politics are different, but i can totally relate to you in a different level.

    Regards

    ray

  104. George,

    I have a question for you. But, let me preface it by saying that I read your piece on Gottschalk in its entirety, and I had to pick miself up off the floor. It was not what I expected from the same guy who has posted here over the last couple of days. You are obviously intelligent, educated, well-read, with sophisticated taste and articulate.

    My father, is a hero to me. He was active in anti-Batista activities, and later helped fighters in the Escambray against castro’s government. I tell you this by way of a little background, so you can see were I’m coming from. Anyway, back to the subject.

    My father used to say that cursing and insults are an uneducated and unintelligent man’s way to express his frustration at being unable to fully express the depth of his feelings or the complexity of his thoughts.

    Here is my question to you, and do not take it the wrong way, es sincera y sin malicia (to paraphrase Val). You have a gift. The ability to communicate your thougths and your passion precisely and articulately. That is in full display in the Gottschalk piece. You have chose to place that gift at the service of a worthy cause. So, why do you resort to gutter language and insults so frequently as evidenced in this blog? Wouldn’t it be more convincing and effective, for that cause, to make your point with well chosen words and logic? Or, where necessary to dress down la gente equivocada with a clear exposition of the error of their ways? (And, as an alternative, some people who clearly have an agenda should simply be ignored).

    Again, this is a sincere question–not dumping on you at all. Just wondering what your rationale is for choosing one approach over the other. I am guessing that you have made a conscious decision about your writing style at some point.

    Look forward to your thoughts on this.

  105. LittleGator, thanks for the nice words.

    I don’t have the problem with bad words other people seem to have, and I don’t consider the use of profane language negative in the least, as long as it is in the right forum — Church is not the right place, for example, or Thanksgiving dinner. It is succint and it immediately (and forcefully) makes a distinction about the message you are sending. Many, many folks use it and it has absolutely zero bearing on intellect or the ability to use same. To me, profanity is like a spice used to emphasize the flavor of a meal.

    For example, After your comment, and Ray’s, I will now say to both of you, “you are diametrically opposed to my way of thinking on many issues and we’ll agree to disagree, as long as your arguments do not degenerate into liberal platitudes.” Nicely said, right? However, I can also say, “CaCubano is a fucking asshole who doesn’t have the balls to discuss his problem with me.” That immediately indicates the thrust of my statement, doesn’t it?

    So that is why use those “bad” words. Some are offended, some not. In either case, I don’t care. Language is more than just a cheese sandwich; it’s a wonderful, flavorful stew to be savored and enjoyed.

  106. George,

    I understand what you are saying. But, we are going to have to “agree to disagree” on this issue. One other thing you write “after your comment and Ray’s.” My perceived opinion on issues has somehow been lumped together with the opinions voiced by others in a couple of strings on this blog. I’m not sure how that happened. But, if you go back and read my two or three posts you will see that I have not actually expressed any opinions on any issue other than (1) I thought the “dying, right now, as we speak” post was inadviseable, and (2) respectful dissent should not be stifled.

    I have not yet expressed any other opinion here about the embargo, about Elian, about capitalism, communism, socialism, ad infinitum. When/If I do, I think you will find that I may agree with the “official” views of this blog about 80% – 90% of the time. So, please “unlump” me.

    Finally, it was cool being banned. At my age, it made me feel “edgy” as the young kids say.

    Have a good one.

  107. Gator as a side note: My mom uses “edgy”, not me. 😉
    We young people prefer “independent” jajaja. Todo en broma.

    And I have really enjoyed reading George’s “spice,” it has kept me laughing this whole time.

  108. I was just including you and Ray to save time, that’s all. And about agreeing to disagree on profanity, that’s fine by me.

    So, now that you’ve opened the door, what are your opinions on the (so-called) embargo, Elian, capitalism, communism, and socialism?

  109. Hey here’s an opinion from one other seven. Ditto every fucking word my blog hermano George has said and will say. If you trolls think for minute you can pull off a castroite divide and conquer here at Babalu you really are fucking clueless because let me tell you, it’s been tried, and by some a lot smarter than you.

  110. Hey George and LG

    I have a question for you guys. Is the issue of being a Cuban American or in other words the issue of being a minority. I came to this country in 1961 and ended up in montana. early on in my life i had to deal with my cultural indentity. Since i knew i wasn’t going back to cuba, i decided to assimilate. you see i didn’t have the luxury of living in a cuban community like you. I never lost my cultrue though, everybody that knows me knows where i came from, i still speak spanish, but perespective on thing is mainstream american ( i think ). This probably explains why i look at thing a bit different than you. My question to you is how do you resolve this in your mind this identity issue. Do you view yourself as American, a Cuban American, an American with cuban roots.

    No malice here, just trying to understand how you all resolved this this immigrant thing and how you dealt with it

    ray

  111. Ziva, LOL! Ray, I am Cuban by birth and American by the grace of God. I chose to be a citizen of this country because I believe in her. But I also want Cuba to have the opportunity to be great once again, I want it to be a flourishing culture, and I want it to be able to deal with scumbags like fidel quickly and efficiently.

    Once Cuba is free, we, like the Jews, should embrace the motto, “never again,” as the guidepost for Cuba’s future.

  112. George,

    I am a firm believer that thoughtful discussion among people of good will can be used to persuade. Thoughful discussion takes time. Conversely, I have a strong aversion for people whose entire argument on any issue can easily fit on a bumper sticker.

    Libraries are filled with books by people trying to explain, or justify, their position on the issues on which you ask my opinion. So, anything written in a short space is subject to mis-interpretion. With that caveat, I will give you and idea of where I stand:

    The embargo: if we assume the goal was to topple fidel, it has clearly failed. But, the embargo is not the cause of the hunger and misery that exists in Cuba. You have to look elsewhere for that. Even though it hasn’t worked to topple fidel, it should be kept in place, because, if well managed it can be an effective tool for change in the very near future.

    Elian: He is a sad little boy. I feel very sorry for him. Hopefully one day he can come to appreciate what his mother tried to do for him.

    Capitalism, Communism, Socialism: mostly just a lot of misunderstood “-ism’s.” They are meaningless to the man-on-the-street who wants to love his wife, feed his kids, earn his keep, read any book he wants to read without censure, worship (or not) as he deems fit, think and having thought speak freely, etc. It is the overall effect on the individual that matters, not the name on the label. Biblically speaking “by their fruits you will know them, do you gather grapes from thorns?” What has Capitalism wrought? What has Communism wrought?

    Anyway, this is a start.

    Have to go earn my daily bread. Have a good one.

  113. Geroge

    Regarding my opinion on this other issues. Like i said before, my basic phiolosophy is live and let live. I believe in the right of the indivdual to run his life as he sees fit. I don’t want the govement telling me what to do how to live. I respect your right to run your life they way you see fit. The goverment function to make sure we get along and provide the basic services. I think Jefferson said best, “the best goverment is the least goverment”. That’s the lense from which i formulate my opinions.

    I’ll be a happy to tell you my reasoning behind any of those issues and how i arrive at my opinion.

    ray

  114. LittleGator said, ” Capitalism, Communism, Socialism: mostly just a lot of misunderstood “-ism’s.” They are meaningless to the man-on-the-street who wants to love his wife, feed his kids, earn his keep, read any book he wants to read without censure, worship (or not) as he deems fit, think and having thought speak freely, etc.”

    You’re kidding right?

  115. LittleGator, methinks you’d better expand on that statement. These “-isms” bears the direct responisibility for 100,000,000 deaths in the 20th century. It’s not as misunderstood as you state.

  116. LittleGator said, ” Capitalism, Communism, Socialism: mostly just a lot of misunderstood “-ism’s.”

    From my perspective all this isms, scare the holy-crapola out of me. i get the sense the elitist that control this isms are not really looking out for me

    ray

  117. Ziva,

    No. I am not kidding.

    Do you think that the the man-on-the-street (anywhere in the world) would spend much time pondering what “label” he is living under if he were free to “love his wife, feed his kids, earn his keep, read any book he wants to read without censure, worship (or not) as he deems fit, think” for himself and express himself freely without fear? Isn’t that what truly matters, and not unquestioning fealty to some amorphous concept?

    Do you think many people, even “educated” people grasp the finer theoretical points of the various systems? So, hence, aren’t they misunderstood “-ism’s”?

    Why do you ask if I am kidding?

  118. Ray, I was a card-carrying, dues-paying member of the Libertarian Party for many years. Libertarianism (with a small “l”) is a great starting point for a political philosophy. History, however, has shown us that it fails miserably precisely because sometimes you cannot “live and let live.” Sometimes you have to kick some ass. The Libertarian philosophy would have prevented us from fighting Hitler, Imperial Japan, the Communists and anyone else who has become a clear and present danger to the United States.

  119. George, I agree with that Libertarianism is starting point. It’s more of philosophy than a political deal. Unfortunatly we need government so we can prosper and get along with one another. I just don’t have too much faith in current crew both dems/repubs, they just don’t seem to have good record of getting things done. Just ask the folks in NewOrleans, where were this isms when the leavees broke. It seems to me that it was everyone for themselves.

    ray

  120. Which ism you live under directly determines whether or not you are allowed to have the choice to, as you say, “love his wife, feed his kids, earn his keep, read any book he wants to read without censure, worship (or not) as he deems fit, think” for himself and express himself freely without fear.”
    It is our democratic ism we live under that gives us those rights and the ism’s of communism and facism that deny people those rights in places like Cuba, N. Korea, China, Iran, etc, etc. You may wish you could live in a utopian society without politics, but it is not possible.

  121. George,

    To the vast majority of people on this planet what matters is the end result. So, if a system delivers the freedom that the human spirit seeks, natural rights, human rights, the “right to the pursuit of happiness,” to quote the founding fathers, then it can be justifiably and empirically judged to be a good system. But, economic theories and their finer points are best left to academics.

    Has communism (or fidelism) delivered to the Cuban man-on-the-street the ability to “love his wife, feed his kids, earn his keep, read any book he wants to read without censure, worship (or not) as he deems fit, think” for himself and express himself freely without fear? (obviously this is only a partial list). I think the answer is obvious. It is as simple, and as complicated as that.

    Are a man’s material needs AND “spiritual” aspirations being met by the system? If not, to the extent it fails to meet these needs it should be tweaked, or even scrapped if the failure is catastrophic (as is the case in Cuba).

    We could say: “communism bad, capitalism good.” But that is too simplistic, and at the same time unnecessary. Just compare the effect on the daily lives and aspirations of the citizens of each system, and any attempt at sophistry becomes transparent.

  122. LG

    I think the only ism, that’s going give you some hope is INDIVIDUALISM. You see as long as you learn how to take care of yourself, you’ll figure out how to survive in those other ISMs. None of those ism are looking out for you.

    ray

  123. Ray,

    Maybe, but don’t we have an obligation, at least to some extent, to be our brother’s keeper?

    And Ziva,

    You are right. Society without politics is not possible. But we can always improve on what we have. The “capitalism” of the robber barons and the industrial revolution led to much human missery and birthed “communism.” It would have been a still birth were it not for the common men’s sense of dispair under that early capitalism. These -ism’s aren’t static. They change, evolve, or die. It isn’t necessarily capitalism that gives us our freedom. It is the democratic principles under which we live. Some European countries have a different economic model than the USA, yet are strong democracies with fiercely free citizen’s. I don’t want my point to get lost. It was really just simply that labels more often than not are used to hide the truth and not to reveal it.

    I recently read Orwell’s essay on language and politics. Not sure if I saw a reference to it here, or somewhere else. It makes a great read. Stay away from labels and slogans. They can mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean, or nothing at all.

    Hope this clarifies, at least a little, where I am coming from.

    Regards,

  124. How can Individualism survive in Communism?

    well take a look at the igenuity of the cuban in that island, this guys have figure how to make old cars work, put food in their table, they know how to survive despite the ism that is supressing them.

    ray

  125. “The two ideas are diametrically opposed… are they not?” Absolutely. My starting point is that any “-ism” that wishes to impose its belief system on me deserves to be destroyed. The individual, and his rights, especially the right to believe as he or she pleases, and the right to own private property without emcumbrance, is paramount. Any other “-ism” should be fought until it (and its followers) are dead.

  126. I agree that the Cuban people have shown great ingenuity in surviving communism…but that is not Individualism. Those who are real Individuals, in Cuba, are either in exile, dead, or in jail.

  127. LG says:Maybe, but don’t we have an obligation, at least to some extent, to be our brother’s keeper?

    Well if you can’t take care of yourself and how can you take care of your brother. Or how long will your brother be willing to take care you?

    ray

  128. Mavi: Individualism is about taking responsability for your own life and not relying on others to do that for you. I contend those people in cuba have a high degree of individualism, otherwise how can they survive that oppresive regime. They have figure out how to survive despite that ism they live on.

    ray

  129. Amy: Are you saying that as Americans we are powerless to help our brothers in Cuba?

    That’s a personal choice, that each one needs to make. Not you are not powerless you have freedom of choice. But let’s not expect the goverment to make that choice for us.

    ray

  130. Ray: Even though I do believe that words mean things and we need them to communicate…we need to be clear about definitions. I get your point about labels though.

    We can’t debate intelligently without first making sure that terms are defined.

    Also…”isms” are only animated by the People who use them. Ultimately it is People who oppress, kill, etc. Unfortunately there will always be ill-intentioned Scoundrels who will tell you what you want to hear and then when they are entrenched turn on those who believed in them.

    That’s why Laws and respect for them should be above any Politician, Ruler, etc.

    I believe that the Cuban People are a testament to the Human Spirit and yes… I will quit pointing out that it is not Individualism as I see it. But you have to admit that Communists have to crush all individualism that goes againt their agenda.

  131. Mavi: But you have to admit that Communists have to crush all individualism that goes againt their agenda.

    No question about it. Of course communists want to convince you that the state will be there for you to take care of your needs. If you have an individualist view you will soon figure out, that’s a bunch bs and you best figure out how to put food in the table, so take responsability for your life.

    ray

  132. Yes… our govt. is by the people and for the people and of the people. But the mechanism that governs is the Constitution and the laws that are passed by Congress, Enforced by the President, and Interpreted by the Courts.

  133. Ray, I agree with you regarding Individualism and taking responsibilty for yourself.

    But, what would you do for those who can’t take care of themselves. Such as: orphans, the handicapped etc?

  134. Not you are not powerless you have freedom of choice. But let’s not expect the goverment to make that choice for us.

    Ray, if our government is “by the people, for the people” and “we the people” are choosing to help our brothers in Cuba, why can’t I expect my government to be involved in supporting the people in Cuba?

  135. Mavi say: But, what would you do for those who can’t take care of themselves. Such as: orphans, the handicapped etc?

    That’s the safety net and we as society need agree, is it the role of goverment or can private group perform that function. I would say private groups probably do a better of job of that.

    Amy: Ray, if our government is “by the people, for the people” and “we the people” are choosing to help our brothers in Cuba, why can’t I expect my government to be involved in supporting the people in Cuba

    What other countries do you want our goverment to support and help besides cuba, the list is long and our tax dollars are short. Do you think our goverment is doing a good job of helping our own people?

    ray

  136. Nice to see libertarianism being debated here on Babalu.

    Somebody up there took a shot at 19th century capitalism, and I respectfully object. (I’d look up the exact quote, but I’m too lazy, sorry.)

    Early capitalism had its share of troubles simply because it was a transition period between the feudalist/mercantilist system and the free market system.

    To the apologists of state interventionism, I say this: what a coincidence that the emergence of capitalism paralleled the greatest increase in prosperity in human history.

    Yes, children worked in factories during the Industrial Revolution; 50 years earlier they were starving to death. Yes, the Irish lived in deplorable conditions in the Lower East Side; in feudalist Ireland they were starving to death.

    Statists would have you think we’ve come this far in spite of capitalism, not because of it. But that’s just not so.

  137. Ray,

    You’re right, the list IS long and our dollars are short, but does that justify not even trying? Should we try to help repressed people find freedom, or just leave well enough alone? Are we to subscribe to the belief that if (insert name of repressed people here) have survived this long without us, they will keep on surviving? A kind of sink or swim mentality? The school of “not my problem”?

    I guess this is the point where I just can’t agree with that. I can’t wrap my brain around the idea. Thank you for sharing though. I need a cafecito now. 🙂

  138. Amy says:Should we try to help repressed people find freedom, or just leave well enough alone? Are we to subscribe to the belief that if (insert name of repressed people here) have survived this long without us, they will keep on surviving?

    Well i guess where i come down on this, i just don’t see that is the goverments role to make those type of descisions. It seems those are moral altruistic type judgements. I don’t think is goverment’s role enforce those values on us. Now if you as individual or through a group chose to help other’s in need, that’s a different thing.

    You raise good questions, there’s no black and white answer. It think it was just T/Jefferson that said “the least goverment is the best goverment”, that’s my point of reference.

    ray

  139. Little Gator
    Here is the essay by George Orwell that you were referring to. I had written it on apost but it was deleted for some reason unbeknownst to me . Enjoy! The following is from an essay by George Orwell called, “Politics and the English Language” written in 1946. It is just as valid and applicable today as it was then.

    ——————————————————————————–

    In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism., question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without tri al, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, “I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so.” Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

    “While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement.”

    The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as “keeping out of politics.” All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find — this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify — that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship.

    But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. A bad usage can spread by tradition and imitation even among people who should and do know better. The debased language that I have been discussing is in some ways very convenient. Phrases like a not unjustifiable assumption, leaves much to be desired, would serve no good purpose, a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind, are a continuous temptation, a packet of aspirins always at one’s elbow. Look back through this essay, and for certain you will find that I have again and again committed the very faults I am protesting against. By this morning’s post I have received a pamphlet dealing with conditions in Germany. The author tells me that he “felt impelled” to write it. I open it at rando m, and here is almost the first sentence I see: “[The Allies] have an opportunity not only of achieving a radical transformation of Germany’s social and political structure in such a way as to avoid a nationalistic reaction in Germany itself, but at the same time of laying the foundations of a co-operative and unified Europe.” You see, he “feels impelled” to write — feels, presumably, that he has something new to say — and yet his words, like cavalry horses answering the bugle, group themselves automatically into the familiar dreary pattern. This invasion of one’s mind by ready-made phrases (lay the foundations, achieve a radical transformation) can only be prevented if one is constantly on guard against them, and every such phrase anaesthetizes a portion of one’s brain.

  140. Jane, for your information, Orwell, based on personal experience, savagely critiqued his former political belief (i.e., Communism). This essay appears to be just that. Exactly what was the context you were trying to get across?

  141. Hey George

    You said you like rock, about the band rush, here are the lyrics from one of their songs from the album ANTHEM the song is titled Something for Nothing, it thought it kind of highlights some of the things we been blogging about

    ———————-
    Waiting for the winds of change
    To sweep the clouds away
    Waiting for the rainbows end
    To cast its gold your way
    Countless ways
    You pass the days

    Waiting for someone to call
    And turn your world around
    Looking for an answer to
    The question you have found
    Looking for
    An open door

    You dont get something for nothing
    You dont get freedom for free
    You wont get wise
    With the sleep still in your eyes
    No matter what your dreams might be

    What you own is your own kingdom
    What you do is your own glory
    What you love is your own power
    What you live is your own story
    In your head is the answer
    Let it guide you along
    Let your heart be the anchor
    And the beat of your own song

    ——————————–

    Enjoy, let me know your thoughts

    ray

  142. Shit. I forgot to add Rush to my list since I like them too. Although I’ll admit, that as I get older, the rock I listen to grows less and less. “Wish you were here” is an evergreen, as is “Dark Side of the Moon.” Those two albums are so good that they transcend the genre itself. I listening to more of the Eagles, too. Don’t know why. Their songs are just so damn good.

  143. Hi George;

    What I saw in the article that Orwell wrote was
    that ALL politicians but in particular dictators use
    language to manipulate and deceive their people.
    Thanks for the question. :^)

  144. Ray and George:

    You guys have some great taste in music. I loved

    the lyrics to the Rush song. How is the music? Feel like hearing it. Wow! It’s 11:05p.m. must go to bed. G’night. Que suenen con los angelitos!

  145. Jane,

    That is the essay I referenced. Perhaps I did originally come across it in your previous post. Nevertheless, I pulled it in its entirety from another source, and I seem to recall it is subtantially longer than what you posted above.

    Thanks again Jane.

  146. I’m glad you enjoys those lyrics, here’s antoher one call FREEWILL from RUSH, this is pretty heavy
    ————————–
    There are those who think that life
    Has nothing left to chance
    With a host of holy horrors
    To direct our aimless dance

    A planet of playthings
    We dance on the strings
    Of powers we cannot perceive
    The stars arent aligned —
    Or the gods are malign
    Blame is better to give than receive

    You can choose a ready guide
    In some celestial voice
    If you choose not to decide
    You still have made a choice

    You can choose from phantom fears
    And kindness that can kill
    I will choose a path thats clear
    I will choose free will

    There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
    The cards were stacked against them —
    They werent born in lotus-land

    All preordained
    A prisoner in chains
    A victim of venomous fate
    Kicked in the face
    You cant pray for a place
    In heavens unearthly estate

    Each of us
    A cell of awareness
    Imperfect and incomplete
    Genetic blends
    With uncertain ends
    On a fortune hunt
    Thats far too fleet…

    ——-

    Enjoy

    ray

  147. Here’s what i learned

    We thought we were enemies, music brought us together, we agreed to disagree, we took out our peace pipes and smoked some RUSH

    Can it get any better? It’s all good!

    ray

  148. Hi Val and everyone:

    Getting along feels much better than fighting! i still feel a little like I am walking on eggshells, and I fervently hope you will allow me at some future time to share my very passionate beliefs!

    LG: That was just an excerpt of the Orwellian Essay. My husband sent me it from his law firm. He does Business, Corporate and Securities Law and Litigation and I am learning a lot about the way things work in business. He hears a lot of lies and bull—t and thought I might like to hear it also. That was the reason I sent it. Hey—You guys want to hear a funny line! I bought a t-shirt back from NY, for my son, that says “The beatings will continue, until morale improves”. Somehow that doesn’t make sense to me.

  149. Val:

    I just read your comments to SMEB and others on the Aleida Guevara site. The bad words and insults were free flowingfrom you an others. I need to know from you if this is going to be allowed and tolerated in this blog? PLEASE RESPOND.

  150. Yikes! I may have confused you with my previous comments. I did NOT mean that the Orwellian excerpt was lies and b…s..t. I meant a lot of what business does is. Thanks.

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