18 thoughts on “The real reason we’re up poop creek”

  1. Ah Moneo, still representing conservatives causes intelligently, I see. I’m not surprised. The only people that must be polite on this site (at least according to you) are people who disagree with you.

    Yeah, I know it’s a Zucker video, but it’s too damn similar to Republican commercials already running to not be a spoof, let alone to be taken seriously.

    I recall you said you read Slate. No need to get antsy baby, I know you know the same things I know.

  2. Eskiusmi. The Slate piece proves nothing. It retells the story with a different spin. But the outcome is the same.

    Article Key Words: “United Nations” (I’m choking on my colada), “Jimmy Carter” (no comment necessary), and my favorite money quote describing the agreement: It allegedly “bottled up North Korea’s nuclear program for eight years” — yeah, bottled it all right, out of sight while it was getting pumped up & fine tuned with the gear we sent them.

    Slate gets all of its ammunition for this article from a book …. single sourcing is always dangerous; it’s like — well, like SLATING on thin ice.

  3. The fact is that North Korea owes its nuclear weapons program to the Clinton administration. Below is CNN’s timeline of events (commentary by Steve Bowers)

    1993: North Korea says it has quit the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty amid suspicions that it is developing nuclear weapons. It later reverses that decision.

    1994: North Korea and U.S. sign an agreement. North Korea pledges to freeze and eventually dismantle its nuclear weapons program in exchange for international aid to build two power-producing nuclear reactors.

    Aug. 31, 1998: North Korea fires a multistage over Japan and into the Pacific Ocean, proving it can strike any part of Japan’s territory. So obviously, this plan didn’t work. Score one for the Clinton Administration and their “legacy”. But let’s just twiddle our thumbs a little longer.

    May 25-28, 1999: Former Defense Secretary William Perry visits North Korea and delivers a U.S. disarmament proposal.

    Sept. 13: North Korea pledges to freeze long-range missile tests.

    Sept. 17: U.S. President Bill Clinton eases economic sanctions against North Korea.

    December: A U.S.-led consortium signs a US $4.6 billion contract for two safer, Western-developed light-water nuclear reactors in North Korea.

    July 2000: North Korea again threatens to restart its nuclear program if Washington doesn’t compensate for the loss of electricity caused by delays in building nuclear power plants.

    June 2001: North Korea warns it will reconsider its moratorium on missile tests if the Bush administration doesn’t resume contacts aimed at normalizing relations.

    July: State Department reports North Korea is going ahead with development of its long-range missile. A Bush administration official says North Korea conducts an engine test of the Taepodong-1 missile.
    December: President Bush warns Iraq and North Korea that they would be “held accountable” if they developed weapons of mass destruction “that will be used to terrorize nations.”

    Jan. 29, 2002: Bush labels North Korea, Iran and Iraq an “axis of evil” in his State of the Union address. “By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger,” he says.

    Margaret Albright’s interview on PBS
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/july-dec00/albright_10-30.html

  4. Sorry, on my previous post the name should read “Madeline Albright.” I just started reading Margaret Thatcher’s “The Downing Street Years” and her name was still on my mind. I can’t fathom why I would get these two VERY different ladies confused!

  5. The difference between you and me, Lesly, is that while I read liberal news sources, I use my God-given common sense and rightly discern that most of what you libs spew is BS, pure and simple. I read Slate and The New Republic (and sometimes while holding my nose, The Nation) to get a feel for what you folks are ‘thinking” — and I use that word without any irony. 🙂

    So while it’s true that we may both know the same things, I choose to ignore the blather and continue being a conservative because it is the only philosophy that inspires critical thinking and acceptance of facts without hysteria. If you read all of my posts on Babalu, you will note that I have been very critical of Dubya on many things. I am not, as you would like to think a “knee-jerk” conservative. However, my criticism of him does not lead me to the depths of mental illness that some your compadres on the left exhibit on a daily basis.

    And let me reiterate for the record, that I will never, ever, ever, never, ever, never, never, ever, never, ever vote for a Democrat again. I made that mistake once and it will never be repeated.

  6. Moneo, I live in a red state.

    I choose to ignore the blather and continue being a conservative because it is the only philosophy that inspires critical thinking and acceptance of facts without hysteria.

    Like they say, ignorance is bliss. A little odd of you to mention Slate, TNR, JihadWatch and Fox News in the same sentence and have to clarify what you think of the first two now.

    Gigi: It retells the story with a different spin.

    Help me out. Where’s the spin?

    Article Key Words: “United Nations” (I’m choking on my colada), “Jimmy Carter” (no comment necessary)

    Ah, it’s all clear to me now. Unpopularity legitimizes our bias regarding anything anyone or any organization ever did. That’s why people who automatically criticize Bush are just as wrong as you are.

    Firefly: The fact is that North Korea owes its nuclear weapons program to the Clinton administration. Below is CNN’s timeline of events [snip]

    The timeline misses quite a bit. For one thing after the IAEA locked up Kim’s 8,000 fuel rods the light-water reactors were never delivered and the Agreed Framework broke down. It may interest you two know that two years ago we made Kim a proposal almost identical to Clinton’s Agreed Framework:

    The proposal that Bush let Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly put on the table Tuesday night’s proposal that reportedly originated with South Korea’s amounts to the following: North Korea has three months to commit to dismantling its nuclear weapons program. Once it makes this declaration, the United States will provisionally pledge not to invade its territory or topple its regime. At the same time, South Korea, Japan, China, and Russia will start sending North Korea an enormous amount of fuel oil each month. A timetable marking subsequent steps, including the dropping of economic sanctions, will culminate with North Korea actually dismantling its nuclear facilities and shipping its plutonium abroad to be destroyed.

    The only thing new about this proposal is that it calls for North Korea to receive energy assistance in the form of heavy fuel. Clinton’s 1994 accord, formally titled the Agreed Framework, called for the assistance to come in the form of two light-water nuclear reactors, with heavy fuel provided only as an interim measure. Otherwise, the two deals are essentially the same.

    Bush Bargains Badly

    It may also interest you to know that Bush and Putin have proposed giving Iran light-water reactors to bring them back into NPT compliance, and Bush took it upon himself to promise nuclear technology to India without congressional input. India. The country that refused Clinton’s economic and technological package in exchange for disarming and signing the NPT.

    Look. Hindsight is 20/20, but conservatives have got to get a new punchline. Blaming-it-on-Clinton is beyond cliche. That dead horse is a carcass and it can’t help anyone in power today save face.

  7. For the life of me I can’t understand you liberals… You lay blame on President Bush for
    launching “a pre-emptive strike against Iraq.” You call him Cowboy and a warmonger; you criticize his administration (and the U.S. government as a whole) for “policing the world;” you claim that the U.S. should stop interfering in other countries’ politics, that the United Nations should play a more significant role, yet Ashton B. Carter, assistant secretary of defense under President Clinton, and former Clinton Defense Secretary William J. Perry suggested the United States launch a pre-emptive strike on Korea to stop the missile test. WHAT? Are they nuts! Not to worry… If there is a nuclear holocaust you can always blame President Bush! How very typical of you liberals, it’s always somebody else’s fault.

    All I ever hear from the left is that the United States is heading in the wrong direction that WE are on the wrong track bla, bla, bla… Well, that is exactly were ex-President Clinton was taking this country before President Bush picked up his mess. This little bit of information comes from STANFORD University Journal of International Relations. According to the article, the Clinton administration was marked by fruitless talks, miniscule successes and many setbacks…

    http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjir/3.1.09_ratliff.html

  8. Well, Firefly, who are these liberals you’re talking about?

    yet Ashton B. Carter, assistant secretary of defense under President Clinton, and former Clinton Defense Secretary William J. Perry suggested the United States launch a pre-emptive strike on Korea to stop the missile test.

    Are they Clinton? Did the buck stop with them when Clinton was in office? If Nixon had nuked North Vietnam do you think the public would turn against Nixon or his gargoyle, Kissinger?

    All I ever hear from the left is that the United States is heading in the wrong direction that WE are on the wrong track bla, bla, bla… Well, that is exactly were ex-President Clinton was taking this country before President Bush picked up his mess.

    Why stop with Clinton? Aren’t you limiting yourself? Why not keep going back and talk about Bush Sr.? Blame this mess on him for his failure to make N.K. sign the IAEA’s safeguards agreement and later capitulating to the Kim’s demand that we remove “all short-range land- and sea-based tactical nuclear weapons from South Korea“. Because obviously, this must be where the North figured it could use our strategic interests in the area against us and blackmail us after breaking the NPT.

    But this information doesn’t jive with your liberal v. conservative constructs. It doesn’t allow you to lay blame where it belongs during Bush Jr.’s watch, and it definitely makes you incapable of laughing at Zucker’s video for the same reasons I do.

  9. Lesly,

    Why don’t you just admit it. Clinton BLEW it big time. All you do is ATTEMPT to another supposed wrong (not showing the sources for your information). The communists and islamofascists only negotiate from a position of weakness, and have NEVER honored any agreement. Clinton fell for it, just as the other dem presidents.

  10. Lesly,

    Why don’t you just admit it. Clinton BLEW it big time. All you do is ATTEMPT to another supposed wrong (not showing the sources for your information). The communists and islamofascists only negotiate from a position of weakness, and have NEVER honored any agreement. Clinton fell for it, just as the other dem presidents.

  11. Max: All you do is ATTEMPT to another supposed wrong (not showing the sources for your information).

    What have I failed to source? As far as supposed wrongs, I find it ironic that Firefly blames Clinton for N.K., but not Bush Sr., complains about liberals blaming someone else, and goes off on a rant about liberals blaming Bush Jr. for everything only to do the same thing by stating the real reason why the U.S. was heading in the wrong was because “that’s exactly were ex-President Clinton was taking this country”.

    I’m sorry Firefox misses the irony of his/her own statements, but I have to point it out.

    The communists … only negotiate from a position of weakness, and have NEVER honored any agreement. Clinton fell for it, just as the other dem presidents.

    Let me guess. But not other rep presidents.

  12. Lesly

    If you want to take North Korea’s problem BACK in HISTORY, then let’s go ALL the way back to President Franklin D. Roosevelt DEM (1933 – 1945) who during the Yalta Conference (Feb 4-11 1945) gave to the U.S.S.R. North Korea. Let me add at this point that both President Roosevelt and wife Eleanor were great admirers of Joseph Stalin.
    President Harry S. Truman, DEM (1945 – 1954) June 1950, North Korea invades South Korea, and thus begins the Korean War. “A total of 29,557 service members (all services) died in battle, or from battle-related injuries. 4184 died from non-combat causes. 92,934 were wounded in action seriously enough to be evacuated. (This number does not include those lightly wounded who were treated at battalion/regimental aid stations and returned to duty.) 7,245 service members became Prisoners-of-War. (DPMO stats as of 04/17/2001).” The war ended in 1953. By the way, I have an uncle on my mother’s side who is a veteran of the Korean War.
    President Lyndon B. Johnson, DEM. (1963-1969) “In the mid-1960s, North Korea established a large-scale atomic energy research complex in Yongbyon and trained specialists from students who had studied in the Soviet Union. Under the cooperation agreement concluded between the USSR and the DPRK, a nuclear research center was constructed near the small town of Yongbyon. In 1965 a Soviet IRT-2M research reactor was assembled for this center. From 1965 through 1973 fuel (fuel elements) enriched to 10 percent was supplied to the DPRK for this reactor.”

    President Jimmy Carter, DEM, (1977 – 1981) Knew about the installation at Yongyon since 1977.

    Ronald Reagan, REP (1981 – 1989) “In 1985 US officials announced for the first time that they had intelligence data proving that a secret nuclear reactor was being built 90 km north of Pyongyang near the small town of Yongbyon. The installation at Yongbyon had been known for EIGHT years from official IAEA reports. In 1985, under international pressure, Pyongyang acceded to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).”
    President Bill Clinton, DEM (1993-2001) “In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel.”
    “On 22 April 1997, U.S. Defense Department spokesman Kenneth Bacon officially stated, When the U.S.-North Korea nuclear agreement was signed in Geneva in 1994, the U.S. intelligence authorities already believed North Korea had produced plutonium enough for at least one nuclear weapon. This was the first time the United States confirmed North Korea’s possession of plutonium.”
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/10/9/132140.shtml?s=lh
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17007

    Ashton B. Carter and William J. Perry have the NERVE to criticize President Bush with their back seat driving “politequeria” when they didn’t have the CO#$&ES to do what was necessary when they were on the drivers seat! How very typical!
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2006/06/21/AR2006062101518.html

    I believe I’ve made my point.

  13. One correction, Firefly.

    President Bill Clinton, DEM (1993-2001) “In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel.”

    Clinton won the 1992 election and was in office from 1993 to 2001. If you’re going to blame Clinton for Bush Jr.’s N.K. policy, then you need to blame Bush Sr. for Clinton’s N.K. policy. As for this:

    President Jimmy Carter, DEM, (1977 – 1981) Knew about the installation at Yongyon since 1977.

    The U.S. announced “they had intelligence data proving that a secret nuclear reactor was being built 90km north of Pyongyang near the small town of Yongbyon” in 1985, but I won’t quibble the point.

    I think you’re missing my point, though, and it’s this: blaming Clinton for N.K. testing a nuclear weapon on Bush’s watch is ridiculous when one looks at N.K.’s history of blackmail through belligerence. Zucker’s video and articles like this one on NewsMax may comfort conservatives who need a morale boost to continue cheerleading, but they can’t rewrite history. Additionally, N.K.’s history of blackmail doesn’t insulate the current Bush administration’s policy towards N.K. against criticism. After all, you produced a Stanford Journal of International Relations criticizing Clinton for his handling of N.K.

  14. The reason I pointed out that if “In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel.” was to point out that by the time Clinton took office he was well aware of North Korea’s intent. The 1994 agreement was a HUGE mistake.

    Below is a timeline I put together from the articles:

    1985, under international pressure, Pyongyang acceded to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT)

    July 1988, South Korean President Roh Tae Woo called for new efforts to promote North-South exchanges.

    September 1989 Roh Tae Woo followed up this initiative in a UN General Assembly speech in which South Korea offered for the first time to discuss security matters with the North. Initial meetings started in September 1989.

    1989. “The Central Intelligence Agency discovers the North Koreans are building a reprocessing facility — a reactor capable of converting fuel rods into weapons-grade plutonium. The fuel rods were extracted 10 years before from that nation’s Yongbyon reactor.”

    July 1990 satellite photographs as reported by the Washington Post.

    September 1990, the first of eight prime minister-level meetings between North Korean and South Korean officials took place in Seoul.

    1991 North and South Korea signed the Agreement and the Joint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

    March 1992, there’s little progress toward the establishment of an inspection regime, and dialogue between the South and North.

    July 1992, President Roh Tae Woo announced that full North-South Economic Cooperation would not be possible without resolution of the North Korean nuclear issue.

    Late 1992 the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) initiates inspections of North Korea’s nuclear facilities.

    January 1993, North Korea refuses to allow special inspections of two unreported facilities suspected of holding nuclear waste making the world suspicious of its nuclear intentions.

    March 12, 1993, North Korea withdraws from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

    11 May 1993, the UN Security Council passed a resolution urging the DPRK to cooperate with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and to implement the 1991 North-South denuclearization accord.

    June 1993, the U.S. held political-level talks with the DPRK outlining the basic principles for continued US-DPRK dialogue and North Korea’s “suspending” its withdrawal from the NPT.

    July 14-19, 1993, in Geneva, began a second round of talks setting guidelines for resolving the nuclear issue. Further negotiations deadlocked.

    Spring 1994 “North Korea prepares to remove the Yongbyon fuel rods from their storage site. North Korea expels international weapons inspectors and withdraws from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. US push for UN sanctions.

    June 1994, Jimmy Carter’s visit to Pyongyang helped to defuse tensions and resulted in renewed South-North talks.

    July 8, 1994, Geneva, A third round of talks between the US and the DPRK began but were halted due to the death of North Korean leader Kim Il Sung.

    August 1994, talks resumed.

    October 21, 1994, the U.S. agrees to “provide two light-water nuclear reactors for electricity; send a large supply of fuel oil, and that it will not invade North Korea.” Formal accord is signed. The treaty offered energy help in return for a nuclear freeze but North Korea secretly defied it nearly from the start.

    January 1995 the U.S. responded to North Korea’s decision to freeze its nuclear program and cooperate with US and IAEA verification efforts by easing economic sanctions against North Korea.

    1995. Agreed framework was obstructed for a time by North Korea’s refusal to accept South Korean-designed LWR model reactors.

    June 12, 1995, the U.S. and DPRK (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea) negotiators reached an accord regarding North Korea’s refusal to accept South Korean-designed LWR model reactors.
    December 15, 1995, KEDO (Korean Peninsula Energy Development) and the DPRK signed the Light Water Reactor Supply Agreement. “Upon delivery of the first light-water reactor, inspections of suspected North Korean nuclear sites were supposed to start. After the second reactor arrived, North Korea was supposed to ship its fuel rods out of the country.” This never happened.

    On 22 April 1997, U.S. Defense Department spokesman Kenneth Bacon officially stated, “When the U.S.-North Korea nuclear agreement was signed in Geneva in 1994, the U.S. intelligence authorities already believed North Korea had produced plutonium enough for at least one nuclear weapon.” This was the first time the United States confirmed North Korea’s possession of plutonium.

    August 1998, North Korea launched a Taepo Dong missile over Japan’s northernmost island.

    October 1998, U.S. began bi-lateral talks with North Korea “rushing a generous $15 million aid package to the DPRK in the meantime.”

    1999. Congressional study indicated that “The light water nuclear reactors provided to North Korea under the 1994 deal negotiated by the Clinton administration had the capacity to generate enough nuclear fuel to produce almost 100 nuclear bombs per year.”

    October 2000, Madeleine Albright visited North Korea. In her own words… “Kim has shown a surprise willingness to reciprocate to Clinton’s moves to seek accommodation.”

    January 2002, “in President Bush’s State of the Union Address, he famously labels North Korea, Iran, and Iraq as an “axis of evil.”

    October, 2002 “officials from the U.S. State Department fly to Pyongyang, where that government admits it had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons.”

    October 2002, North Korean officials acknowledged the existence of a clandestine program to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons that is in violation of the Agreed Framework and other agreements.

    July of 2002, “documentary evidence was found in the form of purchase orders for the materials necessary to enrich uranium,”

    October 2002, “Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly met with his North Korean counterpart for scheduled talks. Kelly confronted North Korea with the tangible evidence of its duplicity. After a day of outright denial, North Korea abruptly reversed its position and defiantly acknowledged a secret nuclear program.”

    December 2002, “North Korea expels the international weapons inspectors, restarts the nuclear reactor at Yongbyon, and unlocks the container holding the fuel rods.”

    Jan. 10, 2003, “North Korea withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty — noting, however, that there would be a change of position if the U.S. resumed its obligations under the Agreed Framework and signed a non-aggression pledge.”

    March, 2003, “President Bush orders several B-1 and B-52 bombers to the U.S. Air Force base in Guam — within range of North Korea.”

    April, 2003, “North Korea’s deputy foreign minister announces that his country now has “deterrent” nuclear weapons.”

    May, 2003, “Bush orders the Guam-based aircraft back to their home bases.”

    October, 2003, “the North Koreans announce they have reprocessed all 8,000 of their fuel rods and solved the technical problems of converting the plutonium into nuclear bombs.”

    Sept. 12, 2004, Exchange between Tim Russert’s Meet the Press and Madeleine Albright.
    Russert: But didn’t North Korea develop a nuclear bomb on Bill Clinton’s watch?
    Albright: No, what they were doing, as it turns out, they were cheating… NO WAY! who would have thought?

    September 2005 the North Korean regime “pledged during six-party talks with the U.S., China, Japan, Russia and South Korea, that it will abandon all of its nuclear weapons and existing programs. In return, the other parties agreed to offer North Korea incentives including security provisions, economic, and energy assistance.”

    July 5, 2006, North Korea test-fired a long-range missile; five shorter-range rockets; and one ballistic missile.

    October 9, 2006, North Korea carried out nuclear test.

    October 14 2006, Security Council has voted unanimously to punish North Korea for its nuclear test.

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