Let’s allow unfettered access and travel to Cuba! The time is right! fidel castro is dead! There’s a power struggle in Cuba! Now’s the time to jump in! Let’s let Americans go to Cuba to show those Cubans what freedom is really about! European and Asian and Latin American businesses are taking all the business opportunities that American busineses should be privy to!
Those, and a few others, are arguments Ive been hearing and reading lately from many sources, blogs, media, politicians, philosophers, intellectuals, college professors and your average run of the mill Jose’s, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
And, to be quite honest, I dont know if theyre right or if their wrong. What I do know, however, is that absolutely nothing has changed in Cuba since it “opened” up to tourism and business ventures many moons ago. Not a damned thing. Nothing. Nada. Nico. Nick Jones.
So if anyone cares to convince me – sans far fetched hypotheticals, please – and citing regional historial factum, feel free to do so. I want to know exactly how any or all of those arguments stated aove, in the historial context of Cuba and it’s government, will foster change.
Because there’s alot of we should’s and what if’s and supposing we do this or thats going around lately with very little, if any, evidence to prove the theories.
And please, do me a favor, refrain from mentioning any China economic models and if you are to mention Velvet revolutions, etal, like trial evidence, please prove the similarities between those and Cuba and how they relate in a contextual basis.
Have at it. Im all ears.
Oh boy! Ok, Val, you opened this debate up again.
U.S. exports to the “Fidel and Raul Castro Inc”. for 2006:
$214,297,879.00 for 2006 thru July.
On track to reach HALF A BILLION $$$ by end of this year.
Keep saying “Embargo”, the more it is said, maybe the more it becomes believable!
Piruli,
I agree wholeheartedly. At least theyre paid for in cash, though, and not subsidized by American taxpayers like you and me. And another thing, did you know that every trade agreement between any US entity and the Cuba government has a caveat that said entity MUST lobby the US government for thelifting of said “embargo?”
Oh, I forgot to mention…
Instead of allowing Cuban-Americans to travel to Cuba to maybe give relatives some “cash” to help them get a toothbrush, which such ‘cash’ might wind up in the hands of some military-blackmarketeer – I have a better idea, let’s instead send “FC & RC INC” some Half-A-Billion $$$ annually which we know will get directly to the Cuban people to relieve their long tormented suffering.
Val, I have been torn about this ’embargo’ issue like many others. I really don’t like to see anyone transacting business with kidnappers, which is what FC & RC INC are. But, since it is apparent that there is no real or ‘effective’ embargo in-place, only an ‘imagined’ embargo, there needs to be an realistic assessment to who’s getting hurt more… Castro/regime or the Cuban people. If you’re going to have a “selective” embargo in-place (which is what this is), I’m all for it, but for God’s sake, incorporate some “seletivity” that will actually ‘alleviate’ and not ‘hurt’ the actual people there (and here).
“Blockade”?, Did I hear anyone say “blockade”? Well, I’m all for that, starting 12:00 noon tomorrow around the entire “FC & RC INC” plantation. Nothing goes in, and nothing comes out, until we see who’s left standing. THEN I WILL SUPPORT banning relatives from seeing each other without conditions!
Piruli,
Relatives have been able to see each other – and by proxy have the exile members of said families serve as ambassadors of democracy and freedom here in the US – since 1979. That’s 27 years.
Now, let’s leave the humanitarian issue aside for one moment, however difficult that may be. Why is it that we cant concentrate as a community on getting our families in Cuba to be able to travel here without restrictions? Twenty-seven years of history prove that even if we travel to Cuba en masse, nothing will change for the Cuban people. Nothing. Nada.
Why do we have to give in to the FC & RC Inc.’s wishes?
Of course it’s difficult to live here freely knowing that family and friends suffer on the island. But, pragmatically speaking, we arent really helping them at all by doing so. Why give them crumbs when, if we work together, we stand a chance of giving them so much more?
Im not heartless. And I have been raked through the coals over this many a time, but God damnit. It’s not our restrictions on travel to cuba we should be worried about. It’s their restrictions on traveling here, or anywhere else, including free travel in their own country that we should be worried about.
En cuanto al embargo, ya otros han hablado que en realidad no es nada de embargo, es solo una poliza de EEUU, que en estos momentos llega a ser solamente poco mas que un gesto. Y hay veces que un gesto vale la pena, como el tio mio que se busco 3 meses preso por decir repetidamente cuando le dijeron que tenia que hacer trabajo voluntario que el no hacia trabajo voluntario, pero que si era obligado el iba.
Mi punto de vista sobre el embargo es que si hemos tratado esta poliza por 50 a~nos y no ha dado ningun resultado, despues de todo fifo o la china siguen mandando en el caiman, no es hora de tratar una opcion diferente? Ya se sabe que el embargo no trabaja, por lo que sea, entonces vamos a proponer otras opciones.
Es posible que la revolucion por McDonald’s no de resultado, pero por lo menos es otra opcion. O vamos a decidir que “mas vale malo conocido que bueno por conocer”? Yo por lo menos digo: si no trabaja hay que botarlo y poner algo nuevo.
Piruli and Ivancito,
What part of “sans far fetched hypotheticals, please – and citing regional historial factum” did you not understand?
Ivancito,
Entiendo y respecto tu opinion. Ahora, no es simplemente decir “es hora de proponer otras opciones” sino propriamente proponer las opciones y decir, ok, estas nuevas opciones trabajarian por esto esto esto y lo otro.
Lift the embargo and stop giving F & R the excuse that they are in this condition because of the embargo. Lift the travel ban especially for families. If Elian’s Uncle and cousins were family enough to fight for him to stay why aren’t my Uncles and cousins family enough for me to travel to Cuba? Is it right to only be able to see your parents once every three years? Sometimes there’s a little bit of communism in this country and we’re to blind to see it.
They have restrictions on traveling in their own country and obviously they have restrictions in traveling freely out of the country. Heck! We have restrictions in travel as well. A lot of the population that has been approved to travel to the U.S. by the Cuban government has been denied by the U.S. Interest Section. There are hundreds of applications for political prisoners that the U.S. Interest Section is completely dragging their feet. With applications processing taking several years.
“Relatives have been able to see each other – and by proxy have the exile members of said families serve as ambassadors of democracy and freedom here in the US – since 1979. That’s 27 years. ”
– point 1) Agree, but so why now enact insane law to specifically restrict family visits to 1 every 3 years? Where is data to support this great “positive”? He’s restricinting family on one end, and we’re doing it on the other. We should be countering this with the opposite view. In fact we should be encouraging this wholesale for as much family visits to Cuba as possible.
“Now, let’s leave the humanitarian issue aside for one moment, however difficult that may be. Why is it that we cant concentrate as a community on getting our families in Cuba to be able to travel here without restrictions? Twenty-seven years of history prove that even if we travel to Cuba en masse, nothing will change for the Cuban people. Nothing. Nada.”
– point 2) You are right, we should focus on” Cuba’s” restrictions (not ours), but yet again we should have “none” from our end to criticize.
– point 3) After 27 yrs (because “nothing has changed”) we now have to start using this tool (family travel restriction)? When we are letting Agri-Business travel there and make deals to help keep FC&RC INC in power? This regime’s sustainability will not be impacted by one single day based on whether we allow family to travel freely from here. Where is the “historical” success of using this tool (restricting family visits to ANY regime) to end a regime.
” Of course it’s difficult to live here freely knowing that family and friends suffer on the island. But, pragmatically speaking, we arent really helping them at all by doing so. Why give them crumbs when, if we work together, we stand a chance of giving them so much more?”
– point 4) He’s neglected the Cuban people’s basic necessities, because he doesn’t care.
– point 5) He allowed family visits (from USA) so they can pay for their necessities that he can’t – more like won’t- supply them.
“Im not heartless. And I have been raked through the coals over this many a time, but God damnit. It’s not our restrictions on travel to cuba we should be worried about.”
– point 6) Yes. We would be helping them live day to day. However, “working together” has not achieved anything in 47 years. You can see the result by looking around, in Cuba, and in the USA. So, it’s time for ‘every man for himself’ in trying to save their families now. Cuba is LITTERALLY A CRUMBLING BUILDING falling piece by piece, and our families are caught in that building, and we’re going to stand by and just watch?
Firefly, los comentarios en blogs no se prestan para discusiones profundas, asi que coge de lo que hay y no esperes mas.
Val, para empezar vamos a proponer normalizar las relaciones diplomaticas. Por que tengo you que contar con los suizos para lidiar con los EEUU o con Cuba?
De ahi seguimos con acuerdos economicos como cualquier otro pais en el mundo. La proximidad de los EEUU a Cuba se brinda a ampliar los enlazes economicos mas que los europeos.
Por ejemplo en vez de habrir mas hoteles, me imagino que alguna empresa de EEUU les interesaria poner en Cuba un centro de llamadas para lo que sea. Es una poblacion relativamente urbana, y relativamente educada, y que puede trabajar por un sueldo competitivo. Ya lo estan haciendo en Puerto Rico y en Republica Dominicana, por que no en Cuba?
Ya los europeos se aprovechan de los conocimientos ciberneticos y de informatica de los cubanos, por que no EEUU?
Co~no aprete el boton antes de terminar.
En cuanto a que cambios podrian traer esas propuestas, ni se ni me lo puedo imaginar. Pero lo que si se es que el embargo, hasta ahora no ha traido ningun cambio.
When are Cuban exiles going to learn that it’s THEIR OWN ACTIONS that have been largely propping up Castro for the last 15 years?
Every time an exile sends $300 down to their family, or visits Cuba and drops off a truckload of clothes and electronics, they are keeping their relatives enslaved to the current system.
The hell with the embargo. If Cuban exiles really want to see change, then stop sending $1 billion per year down there in cash and goods.
This is my first post here, so it will be a little long, sorry about that, at some point I have to say, sorry my english, let say it at the beggining.
I live right now on cuba, and I have been reading this blog since july 31 2006, I was looking for alternative source of news, nor that this site help alot, but neither the MSN, as you guys called. At least here, I read interesting comments by people how care about us, how directly suffer this regime.
Many time I feel the needs to post a comment, mainly whem I hardly disagreed with what was post, cause as a source from inside, I think I could help you guys achive what I think is your main goal, “Give freedom to the people living in Cuba”.
I don’t think that will help to post all my feeling, again the ones that disagreed with yours, on all the subjects you usually touch here, I hope I have the oportunity to stay here for a while. So lets talk about the embargo, and how I, a young person who live on Cuba and lived all his life under it, feel about it.
As this post is already long, lets start saying I’m all _against_ it. And I can tell you, most of the people I know, youngs and not so youngs, commies and die hard anticommies, are _againts_ it!
Why you ask?, maybe because is easy for you guys who doesn’t suffer it to be pro embargo, even when as have been said before, has prove to not work, at least for 50 years. And then you Val came hear and said that as the free to cuba traveling policy, hasn’t work for 27 years, it have to be remove, and that your point?, that a policy that, ok doesn’t work, but at least make the life of alot of people better, should be change, to enforce one that doesn’t work neither, and may our live sucks, even more?.
Yes I know your point, that is not the embargo, is the regime, ok, I agree, but in the mean time, could cuban living in the island recieve a little help with their misery?, or it is that you one us to be in a position where the only option is just to get 1000s of us killed?, yea sure, that maybe end this regime, but if you want that so much, why don’t you get your body here, and get you killed first?
At this point I have to say, that I thank you guys for not forgetting your roots and your people, and the time you spend trying to help, but I really think you should start think more about the people who are suffering the regime, and less about your ambition, not always the same, by the way.
regards
DotCu (sorry the anonimity)
Val
I think to emabargo or not to emabargo is decision for the american taxpayer to decide, not just the cuban american taxpayer. I believe that most americans are for lifting the embargo and they probably see no reason for it.
Maybe you can explain to me the economical benefit to the american taxapayer from this embargo. Seems to me that the only reason for this embargo is to appease the cubanamericans voters.
just my2cents
ray
DotCu — Interesting comments and welcome to the “free” internet.
Believe me, everyone feels for the people of Cuba who are suffering under Castro, but the only way things will change is if enough people start to suffer MORE and get the reason — and backbone — to rise up like the people in Eastern Europe in the 1990’s.
It sounds like you are okay with trading all of your personal freedoms — freedom of speech, religion, assembly, media, etc. — in exchange for a few more dollars’ worth of goods. I can sympathize with your plight, but you’re offering a really bad trade.
DotCu, it is great to hear you express your opinion coming from Cuba.
Tell me, do you think the U.S. should “bargain” to have free trade with Cuba for freedom of the political prisoners in Cuba and freedom of association, and freedom of speech?
DotCu,
Do you think that the USA should just lift the embargo without asking anything in return from the cuban government?
Esperate un momentico, no se quien fue el que lo dijo, pero como carajo van a pedir mas sufrimiento para los cubanos? Si te gusta tanto el sufrimiento agarra un avion y vete pa’Cuba mi socio que el viajecito pa’ti es facil. Si no sabes no hables.
Caballeros, por favor, vamos a mantener una conversacion civil.
Please folks, lets have a nice civilzed debate.
Ray,
The embargo was first put in place as an answer to the nationalized American properties in Cuba.
As for how economically the American taxpayer benefits from not giving credit to the Cuban government is simple. Cuba doesn’t pay debt, in the event the US were to lift the embargo and lend credit to Cuba, Cuba would default again like it has to so many other countries, leaving us, the American taxpayer holding the bag.
Those were my 2 laymen cents.
ivancito — All I ever hear is how “horrible” things are in Cuba and how Cubans are already “suffering” enough. If that’s the case, why aren’t there more than 100 dissidents in a country of 11,000,000 people? Why haven’t there been ANY demonstrations or uprisings at all?
Life in East Germany and Romania and a bunch of other places was far worse than life in Cuba, and those people managed to rise up and take control of their destinies.
The problem with Cubans is that too many of them have been lulled into complacency with the monthly wads of free money at Western Union and the suitcases full of free stuff from their friends and relatives.
If you really want freedom for Cuba, then yes, the Cuban people need to suffer MORE in the short term in order to spur them into action for their long-term good. Otherwise, we should all just write Cuba off as a lost cause and spend our time worrying about something else.
Lift the embargo and stop giving F & R the excuse that they are in this condition because of the embargo.
Again, I asked for something constructive and backed up with some kind of data. This is, if you’ll forgive me, a tired and lame argument.
Lift the travel ban especially for families.
How is this going to help those families in the future? How has this helped those families, except for maybe a few dollars and new clothes, in the past? has it help reunite them? has it helped foster any change in Cuba where the Cuban family has the same rights and freedoms the exile family does?
If Elian’s Uncle and cousins were family enough to fight for him to stay why aren’t my Uncles and cousins family enough for me to travel to Cuba?
Elian’s uncles and cousins didnt get to keep the boy living in freedom, did they?
Is it right to only be able to see your parents once every three years?
Is it right for your parents and family to not be able to travel here to see you?
Sometimes there’s a little bit of communism in this country and we’re to blind to see it.
Its not communism, its sacrifice for a greater good.
Lori you say: Cuba doesn’t pay debt, in the event the US were to lift the embargo and lend credit to Cuba, Cuba would default again like it has to so many other countries, leaving us, the American taxpayer holding the bag.
I’m not getting your rationale here. What does giving credit have to do with the embargo. From i understand the embargo is about restricting trade with cuba. If we lift the embarog why would we give credit to cuba if we thought they were not going to pay.
ray
ivancito,
Val, para empezar vamos a proponer normalizar las relaciones diplomaticas. Por que tengo you que contar con los suizos para lidiar con los EEUU o con Cuba?
perdoname por el ingles, pero estoy un poco apurado:
Normalizing relations with Cuba guarantess legitimacy to the castro regime which in turn grants access to the world bank. fidel or raul castro could then simply deposit a few hundred thousand dollars and obtain credit in the BILLIONS. Think things are bad in Cuba now? Imagine the bastards with money to throw away.
Por ejemplo en vez de habrir mas hoteles, me imagino que alguna empresa de EEUU les interesaria poner en Cuba un centro de llamadas para lo que sea. Es una poblacion relativamente urbana, y relativamente educada, y que puede trabajar por un sueldo competitivo. Ya lo estan haciendo en Puerto Rico y en Republica Dominicana, por que no en Cuba?
estas soñando, ivan. En estor momentos en cuba hay muchas empreses estranjeras. esas empresas le pagan al gobierno cubano por los epleados un sueldo “competitivo” y entonces el gobierno cubano se llenas los bolsillos y pe paga a los empleados cubanos una basura y en pesos de mentirita. Que gurantia tenemos, historicamente, que el gobierno cubano o le deje al las empresas americanas lidiar directamente con los empleados cubanos o que ese gobierno le pague un sueldo competitivo” as esos mismo? Ninguna.
Let’s simplify this into a workable model.
Let’s assume for the purposes of the model that the Cuban government is not lying and that fc is well on his way to recovery and that he will once again be running the show in Cuba shortly.
Let’s also assume that everyone here wants a free a democratic Cuba.
Then let’s take our two options to their extremes.
Option A: Economic sanctions on Cuba. Let’s say we could somehow manage to convince every country in the world to join us in isolating Cuba. How long would the government of fidel castro last?
Option B: We join the rest of the world in trading with Cuba and don’t insist on any economic or political reforms in exchange for that trade. How long would the government of fidel castro last?
Discuss amongst yourselves.
33139, por cierto esta de madre el nombrecito ese, que no te acuerdes de las demonstracionesy otros actos, o que tu no sepas de ellas no quiere decir que no hayan pasado. Tu oistes hablar del maleconazo? Es cierto que hace ya 10 a~nos de eso, pero recuerda que hace 10 a~nos ya fifo llevaba 40 en el poder. Y asi y todo la gente se tiro pa’la calle en plena Habana a protestar.
Se protesto de todo, los apagones, el 13 de Marzo, la falta de todo. Y cual fue el resultado? Un monton de cabezas partidas, un monton de gente en carcel por 30 a~nos, y al final la vida sigue igual.
Cuando halla tiempo la historia de Cuba se va a poder contar, y desde el maleconazo, a los actos de rebeldia individuales y colectivos como los de los disidentes, gente como tu se va a dar cuenta que si los cubanos hemos estado tratando de cambiar como cada uno puede.
Pero te lo repito una vez mas, si de verdad crees que la cosa es tan simple o tan facil como propones pasa por La Habana mi socio, y despues hazme un cuento.
Co~no Val me vaz a contar a mi sobre como se paga en Cuba? Estoy consciente de todo eso mi hermano, pero la legitimidad del gobierno de fifo ya esta establecida. Un monton de paises le prestan dinero, y hacen inversiones con el. Que mas va a~nadir una apertura de los EEUU?
Los inversionistas no son bobos, si los prestamos no se pagan esa jicara se rompe.
Ivancito, World bank credi that Cuba doesn’t currently get. Do you know who has the largest share in the world bank? Who would stand to lose the most when (not if) castro defaults on those loans?
You guessed it your tio sam and all of us that pay our taxes.
PS, the Russians are still waiting to get paid their billions that Cuba owes them.
To put it in terms you can easily undestand:
si quitas el embargo nos van a cojer de chino una vez mas.
Ivancito,
Si no te nesecito contar como se paga en cuba, entonces come tu piensas que tu sugeriencia de negociar con los EEUU va a causar algun tipo de camio? Quienes son los que van a salir ganado de ese negocio? Los Americanos y el gobierno cubano? Claro, por que basicamente tendran esclavos cubanos. Y los cubanos qualquieras seguigar jodios y esclavos. es eso lo que tu quieres para Cuba y los cubanos?
Val, si la apertura no va a traer cambio, y el embargo obviamente no lo ha traido tampoco, que queda? Tenemos que seguir rajando le~na en el llano hasta que el coma-andante se muera o hasta cuando sea? Co~no vamos a ser mas adelantados.
Conductor, los rusos le siguen prestando a cuba y no son los unicos todos esos hoteles de Sol Melia son basicamente prestamos. Por cierto so hice un posting sobre los prestamos de los rusos en mi blog:
http://elguinero.blogspot.com/2006/09/el-primer-ministro-ruso-mijail.html
ray,
let me see if I can explain it to you:
lifting the embargo and restoring doiplomatic ties with Cuba allows for open trade with said cuban government. problems is that the cuban governmnet owes close to 14 billion to other trade partners and i belive 21 billion in debt to the russians. What will the cuban governmnet use as money for said trade withthe US? They will be trading on credit with certain entities in teh US who will in turn seek government subsidies when Cuba defaults. that makes it you and me who pay cubans bills as american taxpayers.
Let see, until now I see two main position for the pro embargo guys:
1- The embargo is the best way to overcome the regime.
For this I have to say, is clear for you that this embargo may work, like someone here said, by making enough of your people, many of they already against the regime, suffering enough, that they feel the only solution is to fine a magical way to overcome the regime, maybe starving to death or puting they self in front of a tank. Then I ask first just like Val, do you have any data, that prove this can work? because to me it seen it doesn’t, my data, 50 years of failure. Second will you dare to ask the people who will suffer the most, if they want to overcome the regime by this way, I mean by 50 another years of suffering that much. And third, do you know that this embargo give the perfect excuse to the regime for or all the economic failure, how good will be if this embargo doesn’t exist, and the regime loose his “chivo expiatorio”.
2-USA has all the right to do so, at least until cuban regime give something in return.
You know, I’m ok with this, I also think that USA has the right to not comerce, with a country that loudly call his leaders facist, murders, and so on. But the problem is, that USA is wrong, they are not punishing the people who make that allegations, they are punishing people who have little posibility of doing anything.
BTW, I don’t know the conditions on Eastern Europe, but here right now, don’t expect any change coming soon, I even think that if we have a free election right now, the ill old man, lying in his bed, will win, not by the far marging they say, but will win for sure.
And Val you want ideas to rally behind it, go and make sure we have here another source of information, like a real tv marti, the one I haven’t seen it, I don’t know a person who have seen it, I even don’t know a person who knows a person that have seen it. And even that way, USA spend million on that, come’on, are you telling me, that USA can’t win this technological war?. A lot of people, american a cuban-american coming to cuba a talking with cuban, wil do the trick also, but I don’t expect you to support that.
DotCu
Val
I’m not going to dispute your facts and i’m sure we can split hairs on the pros and cons.
But here’s my rational agrgument All the polls that have been conducted in the last serveral years, show that majority of americans are opposed to the embargo are open to restablishing trade with cuba. the business community is opposed to the embargo, the cuban people are opposed to the embargo. So from a purely american perspective why do continue to have a policy that’s not popular with the majority of the folks. It seems that we are creating more enemies than friends. Also it seems to me that is a political policy to win the cubanamerican vote.
I bet one guarapo that if the dems take control the embargo goes bybye any takers?
ray
Ray,
You state the lifting of the embargo is favored by the majority of Americans. If the FACTS Val explained were presented correctly by the MSM, I don’t believe you to be correct.
If you hit the American taxpayer with a threat of more taxes, ie in the wallet by supporting Cuban defaults on loans – they historically would NOT support that.
However, I agree with you that if the DEMS took congress the embargo would likely be lifted. But since when have the DEMS been concerned in the least with the taxing of the American people?
ray, I can’t be more agree with you, just another thing, a few night ago, I was washing “A mano limpia” on my ilegal dish, and they do a poll on this, I guess this poll was answer mainly by cuban-american, you know the result, a 50/50 vote.
And even when the guess against the embargo was a totally disaster and the host, Oscar Haza, seen to be pro embargo.
DotCu
Why get rid of the embargo?
Because fidel is still in power and nothing has changed. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But this policy is broken all over the place. And it’s about time we as Americans, as a nation have a say in our foreign policies, and not have to tippy toe around the South Florida community.
or any other community for that matter.
DotCu,
you are referring to the Bendixen poll that was presented on a mano limpia. The response was not 50/50. The question was:
Do you think that the embargo on Cuba should continue or should not continue?
Should Continue: 53%
Should not continue: 36%
Don’t know/no answer 11%
You can see the summary of the poll at:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/Cuban%20Exile%20Poll.pdf
There’s an unintended concequence here for cubanmericans, by being so adamant about a policy that’s becomming unpopular an not in mainstream, you will turn the american public opinion against us. Politically that’s not a good thing. The mexicans found that out recently with their flag waiving demonstrations.
2morecents
ray
cacubano,
It’s obvious that you can’t or don’t choose to read. Your comment has provided zero to the discussion. If you had read the post you would see that what is being asked for a plan. How exactly will bringing down the embargo work to accomplish the goal we are all presumably united in wanting: a free and democratic Cuba.
Saying that the embargo hasn’t worked to date is not a logical argument for the theory that removing it will work. That’s a logical fallacy. It is possible (and quite likely) that neither action will bring about the changes that we want. It’s not a “this hasn’t worked so the opposite must work” type of situation.
The catalyst toward change in Cuba is the absence of fidel from the stage (period). He is the one variable that has not changed in 47 years of different administrations from different parties, of stricter sanctions of lighter sanctions, of no diplomatic relations to some diplomatic relations, etc. etc. Cuba is in the situation it’s in because of one man. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can forget about the embargo. When this whole cancer/illness thing plays itself out there will be someone in the Cuban hierarchy that will want to reach out to the US. When that happens and when incremental steps are taken (like freedom for the political prisoners) we can begin to dismantle the embargo.
What good does having mainstream americans on our side do us if it we can’t implement the policies we want?
conductor,
No, is not that one, which BTW, looks like a better poll to backup my opinions, even when my point get less votes. The poll I mean is one they did in their web site during the show.
I don’t know about cacubano, but I’m not telling you guys, that the embargo should be lifted in order to achive our goal, even when I do believe it would help, but I can’t say that for sure.
I’m saying it should be lifted because is doing too most damage for nothing!, and again, maybe you think it isn’t, but men you aren’t here, you can’t posibily know that for sure.
DotCu
Conductor: What good does having mainstream americans on our side do us if it we can’t implement the policies we want?
Last i heard our system of goverment is a democracy. something about the will of the majority
Again look at what happen the mexican flag waving in recent demonstrations.
ray
ray
Actually we have a republican (small r) form of government in which we elect leaders to represent us. They go and negotiate with and compromise with the the other leaders. What results is not necessarily a plebescite on every issue. There have been times when the majority has been wrong. Issues like slavery and entering world war 2 come to mind. Just because a majority wants something doesn’t automatically make it right.
Every group (they call them special interest groups now but that’s an attempt at making it sound dirty) has an agenda that it advocates for. Unions advocate for things, PETA advocates for things, free trade groups and businesses advocate for things. The majority of the populace doesn’t have to agree with these things for them to be implemented only a majority of the representatives. That’s the way the game is played and some groups play it better than others. And thus the wrath that is heaped upon Cuban-Americans, Jews and others.
Now Ray I know you know all theese things so I have to ask myself what your agenda is.
Conductor – i read your reply to cacubano. How does the embargo helps us achieve the goal of a free and democratic cuba? After 40years nothing has changed. How do you know is achieving that goal, it seems like the majority of the world opinion is saying the opposite. Who’s out of touch of here?
Forgive me i Must be missing something
ray
Let me ask a question that, apropos of my nickname, may get some blood boiling. Am I the only one who, after reading this entire thread, notices that a certain level of manipulation is taking place to lead to an inexorable (i.e., anti-embargo) conclusion? Just asking.
I am unwavering and adamantine in what I know needs to be done to free Cuba. (And it ain’t a popular position with families, bleeding hearts, fidel ass-kissers, and peaceniks.)
And since you bring up the Mexicans again, what good would it have done for their cause to just shut up? Were people REALLY going to like them any better? And if so, what does that earn them? A gold star? No, they have a policy they want to see implemented and they used their God given rights to advocate for them and put their politicians to work on it. That doesn’t mean they’ll get what they want but they’ll never get it if they don’t play the game. Rosa Parks wasn’t out to win friends when she demanded her seat at the front of the bus my friend.
For all you anti-embargo fans, I have three letters: WMF. That is the ONLY reason the regime wants the embargo lifted.
man, I go mow my lawn and next thing I know there’s a jillion comments.
Ray,
Where in my response to him did I say that the embargo was leading to a free Cuba? You must suffer from the same affliction as him: inability to read. I said his point was a logical fallacy. I said that regardless of whether we remove the embargo or not that the possibility exists that Cuba will be no closer to freedom. That only one catalyst can bring that about and that’s the absence of fidel castro.
Please re-read it. You might learn yourself something.
Conductor this from your post word for word: “”How exactly will bringing down the embargo work to accomplish the goal we are all presumably united in wanting: a free and democratic Cuba””
Where i’m going wrong. What are you saying there
I have no agenda, val open this up, i’m just giving you my rational opinion.
I cited the mexican deal as an example of a political miscalculation. They brought public opinion against their cause, it set them back. Just pointing the similarities.
To sum it up for me as american citizen, i don’t see the benefit of this embargo to our country here’s my reasoning, after 40years no tangible results, we are creating more bad will than good will, and you are restricitng my freedom by preventing me to trouble to cuba if i so desire, majority opinioin is against it, i don’t see how we are winning the good will of the cuban folks by forcing this on them, there’s more negatives that positives on this one, that’s why i’m against it.
Just my opinion
ray
conductor,
“I said that regardless of whether we remove the embargo or not that the possibility exists that Cuba will be no closer to freedom”
And even when you think like this, you’re pro-embargo?, please guys tell me “conductor” is a isolate case, because I can’t believe you are so careless about us and your country!
I think, DotCu, that conductor is being pragmatic with that statement. There are no gaurantess either way.
let me ask you, lets say the embargo is lifted and all sorts of dollars and US goods stat flowing into the country. f the average Cuban wants to buy a couple pounds of palomillas, how is going to pay for them on his slalary?
DOTCU you say: And even when you think like this, you’re pro-embargo?, please guys tell me “conductor” is a isolate case, because I can’t believe you are so careless about us and your country!
My friend i can only say that most americans don’t agree with conductor that includes me and are probably closer to your view of things. Just do a google on recent american public opinion polls and you’ll see how most americans feel.
DOCU what your are doing is bringing the humanity side to this argument, which is often loss in the exchange.
Good Luck my friend
ray
Hmmm. Who is this DotCu? Wasn’t it Joseph Goebbels and his master Adolf Hitler, who said that a lie, repeated often enough, becomes truth? Something is definitely rotten in Denmark…
Ray, where “you are going wrong” is that my question:
“How exactly will bringing down the embargo work to accomplish the goal we are all presumably united in wanting: a free and democratic Cuba?”
Does not equal your characterization of it as my believing the it will accomplish that goal.
I was simply reformulating the question that Val asked to start the post. Remember that? He asked for a roadmap (a+b=c) of how removing the embargo will work to bring about the stated goal.
I added the part about presuming that we all want a free and democratic Cuba because I’m not sure that everyone here has that goal. I was castigating cacubano for doing exactly what Val asked not to do: saying that the change in policy is required simply because it has not worked to date.
I added to Val’s point by saying that it’s logical fallacy to believe that because one tactic doesn’t work, that simply removing, or not using that tactic anymore, will work. That’s a far cry from me saying that “the embargo is working.”
But again if you would have read what I wrote, instead ascribing your presumptions to what I wrote, you would know that that’s what I said.
My opinion is that the embargo will not knock Castro out of power because we are the only country that enforces it and we don’t even really do that. But it does hinder the Cuban government by keeping American hard currency out of its coffers.
And I think it will be useful when the personalities at the top of the Cuban hierarchy change because Cuba’s policies have been dominated by one man’s irrational thinking for 47 years (see my post today at cubanamericanpundits.com about fidel’s irrational nature).
And as for the Mexican example, you chose to ignore what I said. What good is it to have people sympathetic to you if you can’t meet your policy objectives.? It’s better, in my opinion, to be combatitive and powerful than submissive and helpless. The state of Israel wouldn’t even exist anymore if Jews in the U.S. took your approach.
I also explained that we don’t have a direct democracy but a representative one where majority doesn’t always rule. But you chose to ignore that too.
So you are basically here talking to yourself, ignoring what others write and speaking in plattitudes without answering the question at hand: By what mechanism will lowering the embargo bring us closer to Cuban freedom?
The answer is that you can’t provide one. Nobody can make any assumptions about how Castro will behave because he acts irrationally to serve his own ego not to serve the betterment of his people. If he had the people’s best interest at heart and was rational he would have recognized the the only obstacle towards Cuban progress was himself and would have stepped down a long long long time ago.
My point is that, embargo or no embargo, the Cuban people are fucked until fidel dies or is removed from power permanently. Everything else is just window dressing.
Now, you may argue that we should remove the embargo then because, according to me, it doesn’t matter but again that wasn’t the subject of this post.
I think it doesn’t matter now but will matter when a successor to fidel emerges assuming that successor is rational.
Checkmate.
Conductor: you certainly entitiled to your opinion. i don’t know that the orginal question that val posed can be answered. we all seem to have our own ideas about it.
all i can say to you is the tide of public opinion is turning against it and it will come to pass on when the dems take over.
i can put forth my opinion but that’s not going to persuade you, just like the arguments you are putting forth are not persuading me and just like the embargo we are stuck not going anywhere with it.
if i continue beating this dead horse we will become irrational and call each other names, so i’ll stop.
ray
“When the dems take over.” And you’re OK with that Mr. Libertarian? I would think you would detest them more than the Republicans. After all, they are the closest things to Socialists you’ll find in the US.
Val,
I’ll give you one example, of how things are working here now, I have to say first that this example is ones of the worst, but I’m sure I can tell you several more.
A DSL line 128/128 cost around 3000cuc!!, the ones equivalent to dollars, a month, and is only avaible to some state institute and foreing and national enterprise, you know what is the excuse for this ripoff, the “evil embargo” that force cuba to use satellital conection, even when there is a wired link to florida. The botton end, few cuban have the privilege of internet, so no access to altenative source of information, even those who work in a place that do has it, they have to use a very censored and controled internet, and the falacy is that the sysadmin said the censors are to be able of use a very satured link, which some time it’s true.
Now some cubans knows that these are just plain lies, cause even using a service like DirectWay, you could get internet a lot cheaper than this ripoff. But the majority just take as a true what the goberment said.
There aren’t many examples like this, because the prefered way of doing things, it to tell that there is a shortage on this product cause the USA make it hard to cuba to get it. And what I don’t get it, is that you and other source tell that there is no such embargo, cause food and medical supplies are out of the restriccion, but we are bloated with TV ads that make histories about some childrens who almost die, cause the “evil embargo” make it almost imposible to get a drug for him.
Even when I’m one of those who have access to information, and I know not all this stuff are true, I’m against the embargo, cause it failed, and doesn’t make any good, it does do harm to cuban people, the ordinary ones, and it give the goberment something to blame.
And last, as I said in a previous post, there are better thing to rally behind.
DotCu
DotCu, would you mind if I asked you a question? Obviously, you’re not under duress to answer because the regime does not give internet access to just anybody or to plantados, or gusanos, or anybody remotely close to the exile way of thought. It’s a hard question so tell me if you can answer it openly and honestly.
George says: And you’re OK with that Mr. Libertarian?
I can hardly wait george i dream about my fellow california mrs pelusa every day, of course i’m not thrilled about the thought, but reality and how i feel about things are often miles apart.
Nevertheless that’s where we are headed, you can see it comming, the republicans have lost their way and public opinion is doing them in and those no good thing for the embargo.
ray
George,
Yes, I can give anwsers openly, at least through internet, not that I can go and publish these things here in cuba or even shared with someone at my work place, I hope I can publish here in this site, where freedom matters, isn’t it?
And if you want I can may a little discloser, yes me as many other young cubans, I’m member of UJC(Union de jovenes comunistas), at least I was until a few month, after 13 years of membershit(I start when I was 14), when a use my change of work place and didn’t tell I was a member of that organization, the only way I could get out, without having big troubles. I’m also a son of a “dirigente”, not a big one, so don’t make a big deal of that. All those things, help to get a reputation and job, where I can enjoy free internet.
I can forgive you for what in my opinions are wrong positions, but what I don’t stand if you start to make posts about conspiracy theories, I’m just risking so much to bring you a side of the history, so please don’t make me regret that. We share a lot of opinions, I’m posting here for that matter, I’m sorry the first time I do post here is to desagree, but I feel it was more important than just posting, “Val you rock in this post”
DotCu
Oh, I’m sorry conductor, I was not aware that you had all the answers. If I understand this post correctly, I believe the topic was: Let’s lift the “embargo!”
That being said, can you please tell me what the purpose of the “embargo” was. Why was it enacted and for what purpose? Then please tell me if it has achieved it’s purpose. When you get to the part that states fidel is still in power, please stop.
DotCu,
If it is true that you are in Cuba, then I am assuming that since you appears to speak a very decent English you ether work with tourist and are using a free internet access in a five star hotel room. Or you are paying an illegal connection with hard currency. Same as you do with the satellite dish. In both cases I can see that your reasons for being again the embargo; you need American tourist with their healthy tips, or more money from your family to keep paying for those goods. This is fine; I see nothing grown with it. But the problem is that those goods that are coming from the US are the opium that kept the Cuban population inert for all those years.
You can be right when expressing the embargo had done nothing to free our country. But without it, since the only businessman in Cuba is fidel, he will be stronger. And a stronger dictator will oppress his people even more. Beside, has Jimmy Carter mentioned in his speech in there a few years ago; Cuba conduct business with about 150 countries around the world and this had not improve the living standards of the population. Don’t look outside to solve your problems, the Cuban communities around the world will help, but you guys inside the island have to start it.
Now, tell me DotCu, an American company called Tyson had shipped very larges amount of chickens into Cuba. Can you go to the “bodega” around the corner and buy some of it with Cuban pesos… No?… Why do you think that your live will improve without the embargo?
We can, if we choose to do so, send medicines and a limited amount of money to our families in Cuba as humanitarian help to alleviate their suffering. But an avalanche of money from us and US tourist will end up in the government hands and we don’t want that.
First of all, you don’t have to forgive me for anything. God does that.
Second, I am an American, born on the very same island as you. I am used to freely expressing my ideas, regardless of how disagreeable they are to some.
Third, what conspiracy theories are you talking about? My ideas are 99.5% in line with what this blog does on a daily basis. Val and may have a disagreement here and there about my method of delivery, but that’s about it. It sounds like an ad hominem attack, a way to kill my argument or question before it is asked.
So once again I ask you will you answer my question honestly and openly? You know exactly what my position on these issues are so let’s not play any games, OK?
Tu me respetas, y yo te respetaré.
cacubano,
Well you proved that you can read the headline. Are you capable of reading beyond that? Here, let me help you.
So if anyone cares to convince me – sans far fetched hypotheticals, please – and citing regional historial factum, feel free to do so. I want to know exactly how any or all of those arguments stated aove, in the historial context of Cuba and it’s government, will foster change.
In case you are wondering that’s the paragraph where Val challenged the embargo naysayers to theorize how lowering the embargo will help bring positive change to Cuba.
This blog post isn’t about whether the embargo has worked.
It’s not about American businesses being hurt by it.
It’s not about Cubans being hurt by it.
It’s not about Americans being against it.
It’s not even about Cuban Americans being against it.
It’s not about the legitimacy of economic sanctions.
It’s not about the legitimacy of the Cuban government.
The post simply asks you smart folks to describe the mechanism by which lowering the embargo results in Cuban democracy and freedom. Go ahead and tell us. If it isn’t black magic or wishful thinking it should be easy to describe.
But NOBODY has taken on the challenge. Instead it’s a bunch dissembling and logical fallacies like “behavior X hasn’t worked so the opposite of behavior X must work.”
The reason nobody can answer it is because lowering the embargo does nothing to weaken the castro regime. On the contrary it strengthens the regime. A regime with more money and access to even more money is by definition stronger than one living off the charity of Venezuela and stupidity of unscrupulous European businessmen. Would the everyday Cuban be better off (economically) than today if the embargo is removed? Yes they would be. They would be marginally better off because they could get some bigger crumbs falling to them. The crumbs that the oligarchs don’t steal and put in swiss bank accounts, whatever is left over after fidel finances his subversive activities around Latin America. But it won’t bring them freedom.
You are wrong, I don’t know it all. But I do know more than you.
Hell, Henry, my dog is sharper than him.
Let me beat you to it, Ca: “whatever popeye.”
Vic,
Lets say you’re right, the embargo will bring the end of this ditactor, how many more year do you think will be needed?
If by some means I manage to prove to you, that the majority of people, and only counts those persons with access to free information and know the other side of the history, here in the island thinnks that the embargo should be lifted, would you rally with they? cause I asume all of you want above every thing is the wealth of cuban living in the island. BTW, did you know many inland disident, those you feel so proud of, are anti-embargo?, for example Osvaldo Paya.
Few other anwser to you, no, I don’t work on tourism; Yes, my main income is from famaly abroad, althought they don’t live in USA; No, I can’t by chickens with pesos, but I do can buy its on the black market for around 10cuc a box, cheaper than before; No, I don’t think all the American tourist will end in the hands of the goberment, some like a student from a Ohio University that a knew last weekend, will end in my hand, I’ll be sure they know all the lack of freedom cuban have, and why I’m so against this goberment; and last, no I really don’t know for sure if my life will improve, but I do know that anyone else could use the frase: “es por culpa del bloqueo que estamos asi”, and is not when I hear it from a “dirigente”, it is when an ordinary people, like my mother, said it, when I hate it more!
DotCu
DOTCu
How does the average cuban in the island feel about americans and what about Hugo Chavez, how do you feel about him?
ray
George,
“Hmmm. Who is this DotCu? Wasn’t it Joseph Goebbels and his master Adolf Hitler, who said that a lie, repeated often enough, becomes truth? Something is definitely rotten in Denmark…”
Doesn’t this looks like if your trying to make me looks like the bad guy?, even when you doesn’t know anything about me?, doesn’t also looks like you are making a conspiracy about my apearance in this site?
Me estas tu respetando?
From now on, I only will answer cuestion that I think worts to do it, cause as this is your site, I don’t want to looks like a troll.
DotCu
DotCu,
Your opinions and insights are welcome here, and I havent gone through the entire thread, but it seems to me that no one has actually taken the time to really answer the questions in the orginal post.
Henry succinctly put it a few comments up.
We all know the whats. Let’s hear the hows.
I have been following this discussion (on and off) during the day. I have probably read each and every post by now. I haven’t contributed because my own thoughts on the subject have been expressed–more or less–by others. So I had no new perspectives to bring to the table. And, there is no need to say “I agree, I agree.”
But I wanted to take a moment to thank those who contributed. I really enjoyed the tone of respect and civility (for the most part) that was sustained throughout the day. Whether agree, or disagree, whether persuaded by an argument, or not, the thoughtful discussion was very much enjoyed and welcomed, at least by me. And, although I didn’t change any of my core beliefs, I think I learned one or two new things today. Thanks.
After reading some of the comments … I would like to share my humble opinion … I’m not attempting to change others’ stance on the Embargo …
We all know that the embargo originated as a result of castro’s communist regime nationalizing and confiscating private property. Some argue that the Embargo has been proven ineffective and that it has only created and maintained misery for the regular Cuban citizen. However, it has also been pointed out that for the Embargo to be effective and bring about an end to castro’s communist regime and bring a democracy with an open economy, it must be consistently enforced across the border. What good does it do for the USA to enforce the embargo when castro is free to do business with every other country in the world? And when countries like Canada, Mexico, Spain and Italy do business in Cuba, they are dealing with only ONE business entity, e.g. castro and the Cuban government. Are regular Cubans benefiting from the business deals made by castro and these foreign investors? I don’t think so … so that’s not working either … right? Almost forgot … they have been quite effective in the creation of the “Tourism Apartheid” … and I must ask … where’s the human side to this practice? or shall I say “inhuman”!
Let’s not forget that communist policies under castro are the real culprit in the destruction of the Cuban economy. Ownership of property and private enterprise being forbidden under castro’s economy resulted in the obliteration of any form of free market in Cuba.
This brings me to the point that Conductor made. I agree with him regarding that embargo or no embargo, ordinary Cubans will not see a positive change in their lives until castro is gone … and then …
Someone mentioned that polls and popular opinion by Americans show that the embargo should end … we know very well how polls can be manipulated to give desired results. It’s all in the wording of the questions … I’m sure that many of those who are part of the “popular opinion” would come to different conclusions if they were better informed about Cuba. After all, many don’t know the difference between a regular immigrant and refugees. Likewise just like many opt to wear Che as a fashion icon … and are ignorant of who he really wasn’t … they just hear how much castro has done for Cuba (education, medicine)and are not aware of the sad reality of the regular Cuban.
Again, someone mentioned that DotCu was bringing the humanity side to this issue which is often overlooked. I don’t think that the humanity side has been overlooked … after all the purpose of this blog is to create awareness of the ugly reality in Cuba and bring about change so that Cubans (in Cuba) can enjoy a basic human right: Freedom
Finally, I would like to bring the humanity to something that has not been discussed here. My family (like many others) fled the castro’s regime in early 1962. When my parents left Cuba … they left their hearts in Cuba … it was not an easy decision, but they had to sacrifice and leave our families in order to offer us a better life … and I don’t mean material … my parents cried because although they hoped that one day Cuba would become free again … more likely they would never see their loved ones again. So in 1977, IMHO, castro(needing dollars) decided to play with the exile community and allow them under “his” terms, to visit relatives … well what happened to all those Cubans who left and had parents, siblings, etc. died before 1977 and could not bury them? or see them one more time? Where’s the humanity here? Was it fair?
I’m Sorry for the lenghty post … I wish you well 🙂 Melek
“To observe people in conflict is a necessary part of a child’s education. It helps him to understand and accept his own occasional hostilities and to realize that differing opinions need not imply an absence of love.”~ Sapirstein
And why would my statement make you react like that? Goebbels and Hitler said it, so it’s not a conspiracy theory. Your “leader” has been a fantastic exponent of that method of political discourse. One of those “truths” happens to be about the embargo. Hence, my comment.
Now, do you actually think that I am going to suspend my disbelief, and not question the sincerity of someone who appears to be an Internet user in Cuba? A country where los comites have ears in your living room? A country where wanting to read The Bible can land you in a 4×6 cell like Oscar Biscet? A country where doing what you are doing can land you in prison? DotCu, vamos ha entendernos: yo no soy comemierda.
If you are truly interested in debate, without any limits, allow me to ask you the question. If, however, you are more interested in protecting your position than allowing a dissenting view to challenge you and your assertions, which a few others agree with, then so be it.
I’m not as nice as Val or Henry. I don’t pretend to be. I ask tough questions and expect honest answers. So, for the last time, will you answer my question openly and honestly?
Hey George,
It’s not news that “you are not nice like Val and Henry.” We love you anyway, warts and all. But, darn it, I didn’t know you were a tease too. Ask the question already. Either the guy answers it, or he doesn’t. And if he does, either he answers it honestly, or he doesn’t. But, ask it already. Inquiring minds want to know.
Great post Melek.
val, if you think I’m going to offtopic, feel free to stop me.
ray,
About american, the goberment have make a very good job separating USA goberment from his people, they don’t want to loose the help from american people, like in the case of Elian, which forgive me if I’m wrong, but I do think the boy should return with his father, although it was disgusting to see how they did a polical issue about that, and they still do it. So the average people doesn’t hate the american perse, the frase “el que no salte es yankee” have been quitely banned from demostration, but they do believe that USA goberment are just plain evil, they commit genocides, etc, and they could invade us, and if that happens many cuban will take a weapon to fight back, even when they are against this “dictadura”.
About Chavez, they majority doesn’t like the alliance, they even blame the many venezuelans here for the last dengue epidemic. I had to go to “circulos politicos” from the communist party and UJC, all worker have to go, no only the members of that organizations, and on those circles they tell that the oil from venezuela, make the country going, so any sacrify for venezuela is justify, but even that way, all they see, is that his “medico de la familia” has gone, that the hospital are in lackness of doctors, and we are donating TVs to venezuela, when they don’t have one!.
DotCu
Warts and all, eh? Thanks. I think.
No, LittleGator, I want DotCu to allow me to ask it. It’s a question I ponder everyday, a question that Val and I have discussed and even written about. It goes to the heart of the issue of Cuba and I want him (or her) to be ready to answer it honestly.
George: DOTCU seems to be putting forth some reasonable arguments, but he’s loosing me on the credibility issue. He’s has been posting all day and Is hard for me to imagine how he is able pull this off.
In your blog history can you tell the ipaddress where the post originate? that may give you a clue as to where is posting from.
ray
Absolutely. It’s already done.
George,
“vamos ha entendernos: yo no soy comemierda.”
Entonces, que?. Tu si estan pensando a lo americano, mi presencia aqui es parte de una oscura conspiracion del bastardo en su lecho de muerte, no?, porque entonces tu reaccion cuando yo lo remarque?
OK, George make you question, I’m starting to think that doesn’t matter what I say, you aren’t going to trust on me, but you know what?, you don’t have to, you just have to see me points and tested, you’re not in my position, where I can’t posibily know is this history about this guy Biscet, is true or not. But I could tell you one thing, I do live here, you don’t, then how could you know if I can be put in prison for doing this?, I’ll tell you what I think, I will be dumb from my work for sure! and I’ll bring troubles to my father, but I don’t think I’ll be put in prison for anything I had said until now. About access to internet, there’re a lot of people how do have access to internet, state worker on scientific facilities, universities, people with black market accounts, and so on, that mainly on Habana City, many of then will love to post like I’m doing it, but their access is controlled or censored, mine not, AFAIK, maybe I’m wrong, then you won’t see me here tomorrow.
But all you’re comment really make my think if it worst the trouble, because you’re right, me being here its odd, but what if I’m really an honest cuban people trying to give you the points of cuban inside the island?, you don’t have anything to loose, is not like you have to switch your believe, BTW from here DEM do looks as a better option.
DotCu
Oye, Ray, you didn’t answer my question to you earlier: “‘When the dems take over.’ And you’re OK with that Mr. Libertarian? I would think you would detest them more than the Republicans. After all, they are the closest things to Socialists you’ll find in the US.”
DotCu, there are only two possible answers to this question. Here goes:
If the embargo is so bad, and the only real impediment to ending it is the elimination of fidel, raul, and the dismantling of the Cuban communist system, then why haven’t the Cuban people risen up to end the system? If the East Germans did it, if the Czechs did it, if the Romanians did it, then why can’t the Cuban people do it? Why blame the embargo when the guilty party is in the Palacio de la Revolución?
Why?
En español:
Si el embargo es tan malo para los cubanos, y si se podria quitar mañana mismo siempre y cuando que fidel y raul se desaparecieran y si el sistema actual se desmantelaria, porque los Cubanos no se han levantado para acabarlo? Lo hicierion en alemania, la republica Czecha, y Romania. Porque no en Cuba? Porque le hechan la culpa en el embargo cuando el culpable esta en el palacio presidencial?
George,
Ray did answer it. He said that it’s not he wants but that it’s what’s coming. I think the dems are in for a rude awakening on Nov. 8th.
Henry, I think you are so right. I have a $100 bet going at work with the resident idi.. I mean liberal. He is already getting a woody thinking that Chawly and Nancy and Howard and the rest of those miscreants will take over. My instincts have rarelt failed me. I think we will retain both houses.
Henry, I’m asking why he blames the embargo and all the other castro-boogeymen when the the answer is right in front of their nose? If everything is as bad as he’s made it out to be, then why not just take action with the group that deserves it. After all, he said he lives off remittances. So we can’t be the bad guys, right? That’s abig chunk of change coming from us evil gusanos, right? The US Government sells food for cash so that’s not an excuse. My question goes to heart of the matter: why is the government that is that causing the pain still in power?
Thanks for translating it. It helps.
ooh, ooh, Mr. Kotter! Ooh Ooh!
Horshak, sit down.
Ray,
Our visitor seems to be what he claims he is.
And I’m guessing he went home for the night or has been pinched by the authorities for talking to the outside world.
A men, that is a easy one!
On all those country, the communist was impose by the russian, the people never really feel as something that was buid by them and have to be defend by them.
Here in cuba, instead of that, we have a real revolution, carry be his people, with a lot of death, ok, people was betrayed later by the bastard, but in a very clever way, that make many people said that they are “fidelistas”, no so long ago, I could be put on that camp too. Doesn’t matter what the guy do, it is just fine, the majority of the people who put it there will defend him, and the minority who see the real thing, was put in jail, or shipit to USA, as “gusanos”, or just keep his mouth close, like me. And is hard to say and you don’t think I’m trying to make my point, but the “el bloqueo tiene la culpa” has a strong roots on cubans.
Some more thouthgs about this, is you really think this system is so fuck, and even with open trade with all the world the economic is all crap, then why you think trading with american will do any better for him? It is not that you have to give credit to him, as “ray” said.
DotCu
PD: I hope I anwser your question George.
PD1: Not I have to work all night, I just slow writing in english
Good discussion. Too bad I dived in late. Conductor wrote:
Option B: We join the rest of the world in trading with Cuba and don’t insist on any economic or political reforms in exchange for that trade. How long would the government of Fidel Castro last?
Repeat after me. The world is shrinking. Sanctions don’t topple regimes unless every country agrees to starve Cuba. As long as there is dissatisfaction with the global economy stemming from the WTO’s unfair trade practices political movements like the Group of 77 will always circumvent UN Security Council trade sanctions.
Ivancito, World bank credit that Cuba doesn’t currently get. Do you know who has the largest share in the world bank? Who would stand to lose the most when (not if) Castro defaults on those loans?
You guessed it your Tio Sam and all of us that pay our taxes.
Cuba will not be the first or last country to default on its loans. When/if the Castro regime becomes a matter of historical record I hope the first thing the Cuban government replacing the regime does is ask the World Bank to forgive the island’s debt. We already had one dictator putting U.S. financial interests ahead of Cuba’s interests. We don’t need to usher in a second Castro regime by selling out the people to Uncle Sam again.
What you take issue with is Cuba being forgiven its debt under Castro’s regime, or maybe Cuban Americans and American businesses having to come to terms with the fact that they’ll never recoup the financial losses they incurred when Castro nationalized foreign investments. Either way it sounds small minded to me. It’s like you’d rather Cubans endure present conditions than give Castro the satisfaction of “winning”. I hope I’m wrong.
DCU,
I think you underestimate those revolutions in Europe. To me the two answers I can come up with is because:
a) They don’t want to
b) They can’t
And I think both are true depending on who you are. There are people that are willing but can’t like Biscet (you can read about him online just Google his name, Oscar Elias Biscet). And there are people that can but don’t want to. For them it’s easier/better to lay low or to come to the U.S.
Lesly you couldn’t have mischaracterized my statements any more. I know the history of the World Bank. I’m not talking about debt forgiveness for existing debts. If Cuba were free tomorrow that would be a major building block for Cuba to recuperate. What I’m against is throwing good money after bad without any economic or political reforms. Besides you conveniently ignored the basis of that post. You didn’t show how removing the embargo helps remove castro. Don’t lecture me on economics sweetheart you are in over your head.
Lesly, you don’t know jack about me. I could give a crap about American business interests lost in Cuba except that having a stable Cuba where assets aren’t seized is going to be a requirement for future foreign investment. I don’t have any property to claim in Cuba and my father has never once mentioned to me a desire to claim property in Cuba.
What I want is for castro to ddie already so we can negotiate with someone that WANTS to negotiate. Then we take the sanctions down.
As I have all night long, let make another post, while a wait for comments on my last post.
And, ok, the only “hard” point that I have to anwser Val’s question, is that will remove the “chivo expiatorio” from castro’s regime.
Let give more light as what cubans had been teached to believe. Every action cuban revolution took, in 1959, was in respond to an action by the Kennedy adminitration, for example, they had been saying foreever, that the nationalaization of refinery oil business, was in respond to “la negacion” of this facilities to refine Soviet Union oil. And other example, the sugar engine, were “intervenidas” cause the USA reduce or complete drop the cuban sugar quote. And so on, so on.
If you ask any child from primary/high school or even college, the can give you this same anwser from his memory. And you ask, why so many people living in the island are against the embargo? and take as a truth that the main source of his misery is the “bloque”.
So, right now, I don’t know is all this is true or no, guess is not, or at least is not all the truth. But I can say to you, this is what most cubans thinks.
DotCu
Civility has exited the building. ;-p
Conductor: What I’m against is throwing good money after bad without any economic or political reforms.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Please explain yourself.
Don’t lecture me on economics sweetheart you are in over your head.
I must have made a stronger than anticipated impression on you if you think I was trying to “lecture” you, sweetheart. That doesn’t give me the impression that I need to watch myself around you.
Besides you conveniently ignored the basis of that post. You didn’t show how removing the embargo helps remove Castro.
I just started reading the comments. While I don’t have a solid thesis capable of satisfying everyone in the pro-embargo group (and I wonder if that’s even possible or worthwhile given their staunch opposition), I can already tell the pro-embargo group’s line of reasoning has enough holes that it should reconsider telling the anti-embargo group their position is fatally flawed.
To George’s point the people of Eastern Europe were indoctrinated too. But eventually they figured it was all bullshit (mierda). People in Cuba have relatives in the US. They know life is better here. They know we have a different system than in Cuba and they know that things have only gotten worse under fidel. So what’s the story?
“The post simply asks you smart folks to describe the mechanism by which lowering the embargo results in Cuban democracy and freedom.”
Maybe that’s what you got out of it, but I would suggest you RE-READ paragraphs 2 and 3, and then RE-READ my reply.
As for mr. i am what i am, we got some good spinach out here in Cali for you popeye.
And while your at it, TRIPLE READ PARAGRAPHS 3 AND 4
Cuba has a heap of debts that will need to be forgiven. What possible good can come from lending the regime even more money as you seem to be advocating? Castro will use the money for what he’s always used it for: build up the military, fund subversion overseas, etc. His sycophants will grab up what they can and send it to swiss banks. That’s throwing in good money after bad. Is that simple enough for you to understand.
And I’ll repeat for the 1000th time today that we aren’t discussing the merits of the embargo. We are discussing the merits of removing the embargo. There’s a difference. What’s your theory. What magical fairies will be released by American tourist cash that will make fidel see the error in his marxist ways?
C’mon. If you’re late to the party do yourself a favor and don’t make a loud buffoonish entrance.
And civility left the building when you began insinuating unsavory motives behind my ideas.
Same back at ya, CaCubano. It’s amazing you haven’t choked on your own bullshit. BTW, your email address is an insult to the real freedom fighters who loved Cuba.
DotCu,
I really appreciate your comments. It’s not often that we can read comments like yours. As you are aware, you are “lucky” to have the privilege of having free access to the Internet. I hope that with this freedom, you take on the responsibility to read from all available sources and exercise your freedom of thought to come to the reality of Cuba’s history and not “his story” … and share it with others whose only “truths” are those repeated by castro’s regime. You mentioned that you did not know if Dr. Biscet’s situation were true … there are others like him. In fact, I don’t know if you are aware of Dr. Guillermo Farinas.
Dr. Farinas was imprisioned for the mere fact that he wanted to have access to the Internet.
As Conductor stated, you can google their names or you can find another websites. Reporters Without Borders has this information readily available.
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=47
I wish you well 🙂 Melek
“We must love them both – those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it.”- St. Thomas Aquinas
For me, it’s all very simple. If castro wants the embargo lifted, it must be for a nefarious purpose. He doesn’t have any other and history shows it. Therefore, don’t lift the embargo. He is up to absolutely no good.
Paragraphs 1-2-3 are what writer’s call an introduction to the premise. The question is in paragraph 4.
I want to know exactly how any or all of those arguments stated aove, in the historial context of Cuba and it’s government, will foster change.
Too bad you can’t come up with an answer popeye.
Conductor is absolutely correct. And DotCu, here is the salient sentence of your answer:
That still does not make it true.
The Cuban people have what they have because nobody wants to be the first. Those are in jail or have been put against the paredón. But the spirit that makes on group build a boat out of a truck and bring to the US, or that makes a paraplegic design a boat and risk being shark food, is alive. I know it. I don’t know what spark is required to finally light the Cuban people on fire, but it’s desperately needed. Now more than ever, in this time of transition.
Good luck, DotCu. You’re going to need it.
Henry, give up on Lesly and CaCubano. They are professional Kool-Aid drinkers, graduates magna cum laude of the Sheehan/Dean/Dialoguero School of Political Science.
Is amazing guys, without I even realize, the regime have give me an anwser for every of your question, later I have to point out, why I’m againts this regime, cause from my anwsers you could think I’m not, hope you see what I’m doing here, I’m giving you what an average cuban person thinks, even if he is against the regime, but is not in that grout that agree on every thing with cuban-american politicals groups, to get some cash from then, one as myself.
conductor,
You have to remember we live in an island, there is not such a wall to jump over or go behind, or even turn it down, it is quite dificult to have access to free information.
And about our relative living better in the USA, the argument is simple, we are a poor country and we cannot be compare with such a big and wealthty country as USA, we should compare, against Haiti, Salvador, Honduras, etc, that with a little of exageration for the real situation on those countries, and also making big news every time there is a shooting on an american school, kill your argument in the mind of most of the cubans. Although, people are starting to realize, that cubans are not only been sucefully on wealthty countries, but that is a very new thing, with all these doctors staying in countries like haiti and guatemala, even when that means they will not be able to return to the island, nor his family will go out, for at least 10 years.
DotCu
DCU, Cuba si fue un pais muy desarrollado antes de fidel. El y su regimen han sido los que han destruido la isla. No te olvides de eso nunca. No creas las mentiras que te han puesto en la cabeza.
You told us earlier about your pirate dish. You aren’t the only one. It’s been reported in the press here that illegal satellite hook-ups are quite common in Cuba these days. We know for a fact that many programs are taped and distributed among Cubans. The point I was making wasn’t that the US is better than Cuba economically but that Cuba could be better off economically if it followed economic policies that all of the advanced world follows instead of the same ideas that failed in Europe and China. Cubans are supposed to be very well educated and part of an education is the ability to think critically. To try to take apart the arguments that are being taught to you to see if they hold water (if they are strong arguments).
There are people alive in Cuba that were around when the robolucion took place. They can tell you that Cuba was an advanced country to be compared with Canada, the United States, Argentina and the other advanced countries of the world and not the Haiti’s of the world. All you have to do is look at all of the pre-fidel buildings to understand that what was there before was infinitely more advanced than what is there now, 47 years later.
Perhaps you will go out on the street tomorrow and look at those buildings and understand. Try to transport yourself back to the time when all of those cacharros on the steet were shiny and brand new.
DCU,
When you get a chance cuando puedas. Visit this blog;
http://havana5060.blogspot.com/
This is our friend Alberto Quiroga’s web site where writes about and shows pictures of the pre-castro Cuba he grew up in, donde crecio.
Conductor: C’mon. If you’re late to the party do yourself a favor and don’t make a loud buffoonish entrance. What magical fairies will be released by American tourist cash that will make Fidel see the error in his Marxist ways?
Interesting. You thought you heard me make an entrance somewhere and believe in fairies, but you’re wrong to assume I give a shit whether Fidel has a born again experience.
What possible good can come from lending the regime even more money as you seem to be advocating?
You’re assuming Castro will reapply to the World Bank and put up with the sub-state organization getting into his hair about Cuba’s expenditures, civil projects, and so forth. Let’s say he does and takes the World Bank for a ride. What makes you think the IEG is going to look the other way, or recommend continued assistance to the Board of Executive Directors on account of Cuba and risk states complying with the Bank’s standards doing their own thing?
Castro will use the money for what he’s always used it for: build up the military, fund subversion overseas, etc. His sycophants will grab up what they can and send it to Swiss banks. That’s throwing in good money after bad. Is that simple enough for you to understand.
Have I denied this possibility? What’s apparent is that you’re focused on Castro; I’m focused on Cubans.
And I’ll repeat for the 1000th time today that we aren’t discussing the merits of the embargo. We are discussing the merits of removing the embargo. There’s a difference.
I disagree. It’s looking like a distinction without a difference. I noticed you haven’t refuted what I said about regime change, that contrary to your assertion, it ain’t happening.
And civility left the building when you began insinuating unsavory motives behind my ideas.
That’s the impression I got from your posts, ended with “I hope I’m wrong.”
ugh, the reincarnation of Paul Benavides.
How BLIND can you possibly be? This is just like the embargo policy. One person see’s things one way, the other a different way. Okay.
” And, to be quite honest, I dont know if theyre right or if their wrong. What I do know, however, is that absolutely nothing has changed in Cuba since it “opened” up to tourism and business ventures many moons ago. Not a damned thing. Nothing. Nada. Nico. Nick Jones.
So if anyone cares to convince me – sans far fetched hypotheticals, please – and citing regional historial factum, feel free to do so. I want to know exactly how any or all of those arguments stated aove, in the historial context of Cuba and it’s government, will foster change.”
I am not out to convince anyone, but if the individual who wrote this post states: “dont know if theyre right or if their wrong. What I do know, however, is that absolutely nothing has changed in Cuba since it “opened” up to tourism and business ventures many moons ago. Not a damned thing. Nothing. Nada. Nico. Nick Jones.”, the KEY WORDS BEING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN CUBA SINCE IT “OPENED” UP TO TOURISM AND BUSINESS VENTURES MANY MOONS AGO, I also know that nothing has changed since this embargo has been in place many, many, many moons before tourism was ever re-introduced into the island. Therefore, if nothing has changed in Cuba since the re-introduction of tourism and business ventures, and nothing has changed in Cuba since the start of the embargo, it’s time to start something new.
You see conductor, it’s really not that hard to understand. The blind shall never see. You, george..aka popeye.. and other’s who are so engulfed with your hardline views are mearly blind.
Using the same question as Val did, please tell me conductor, not you popeye since your vocabulary consists of only, shit, damn, stupid, blah blah blah, please tell me conductor how keeping this embargo in place will foster change in Cuba.
Since you said that this is not a topic on the embargo, I would hope you could make an exception this once and “enlighten” me with your views.
Please make it good, as I will print your reply and take it with me to Cuba in the next couple of months to explain to my family and friends the logic behind the thinking of the south florida, Miami-Dade community.
I wish I had looked at your blog before I dignified your comments with a response.
Henry, give up on Lesly and CaCubano. They are professional Kool-Aid drinkers, graduates magna cum laude of the Sheehan/Dean/Dialoguero School of Political Science.
¡Hola Moneo! Still doing your part to represent hard line Cubans as rational people. Keep up the good work.
cucubano you really are a shit for brains. Go back and re-read what I wrote you dumb shit. You will see that I never promised that the embargo would topple castro. I only said that it’s a logical fallacy to say that because the embargo hasn’t worked that removing it must work. It’s actually called a false dichotomy and you cling to it like dumb fucking cranks do. You have created a scenario in which only two possible solutions can solve the Cuba problem and if one doesn’t work the other must. I even made the effort of illustrating the scenarios to their extreme conclusions and the only one that even remotely bit was Lesly the party crashing lefty that likes to characterize people’s motives after reading 3 sentences.
I said CLEARLY that it’s possible that nothing good will happen in Cuba regardless of what the US does or doesn’t do until fidel is gone because HE AND NOBODY ELSE is responsible for the problems. You see it’s not up to us to make Cuba free. Only fidel castro can do that (or the Cuban people that George was referring to when were talking about rising up).
I also explained that while the embargo may not have any seeming value today, it might tomorrow when they announce the the murderous bastard is dead and gone forever.
Only a shithead like you would want to take away the one lever that we might have with a successor now.
Now I’m going to bed. Kiss my ass.
please do go to bed, and make sure to ask the wizard of oz for a brain in the morning.
que clase de come pinga eres!
I wish I had looked at your blog before I dignified your comments with a response.
I’m guessing you’re addressing this one to me, Conductor. Yeah. According to some democracy and difference of opinion is a bitch in the States but desirable enough for Cuba to continue lobbying in favor of the embargo. That’s life.
You can have all the opinions you want “you can have a democracy cakewalk right down the middle of tienamen square” (if you don’t get the reference too bad, it makes me laugh) but that doesn’t mean I have to address them. And I won’t.
Sho ’nuff. We can demand an answer to Val’s question, ignore views that don’t compliment our own, and demand an answer again in vain. Good night.
Good point by both of you, but you know, I live now on “La Habana”, but I used to live on the central of the country, and is true, this should had been a beautiful City, but the rest of the country wasn’t, taking apart a few cities. I do know, we were the first country in latin american to have a railroad. Just to put an example. But if you ask me, a big part of the people who when to USA were those living in havana with all the glamour.
People from inside the country instead are more pro regime, they do see an early little improve. Althougth there are strongholds like Ciego de Avila, where a good oposition is forging, but the people doesn’t support they, at least not in a active manner, although the time where their neighborhood were those who give them “los actos de repudios” has changed, now the regime has to bring people from work places, where they can force people to do anything to do this. I have to tell you, this is not a common thing, I have never seen one. I do see picture and live video from the “maleconazo” and recently from a “remolcador 13 marzo” conmemoration.
About the satellite dishes, yes they are common, at least in havana and closed “municipios”, also the common one, is where one guy have one, and put a cable to several neighbors, and charge around 100pesos/a month, the problem is that every body has to see the same channel, so they stay on Univision with his “culebrones mejicanos”, I’m not in one of those networks, but it won’t surprise me if they even avoid the conflicting shows, just to stay low in the radar.
DotCU
PD:I’m going to sleep now, and I don’t think I’ll be so active always, but do expect posts from me.
PD1:I should know that my apearance, may seen odd to a lots of you guys, sorry about that, I also don’t expect to have all your trust now, but as I already said, it isn’t needed, just read my post and make your own conclusions. I’ll try to anwser your question “openly and honestly”, right George?
Yes, Buenas Noches DCU. See you soon.
I only said that it’s a logical fallacy to say that because the embargo hasn’t worked that removing it must work”
To set this matter straight, I never said by removing this embargo we will be able to topple fidel. What I do not understand is how keeping this embargo will create change in Cuba, esp. when other countries do business with Cuba all the time. IT’S TIME FOR A NEW POLICY.
Be greatfull that a vast majority of American’s don’t know how much of our tax dollars is invested into that failed policy. Cause if they ever do find out, that embargo will be gone faster than you can say “que clase de come pinga eres”
Why get rid of the embargo? Because fidel is still in power and nothing has changed.
OK what’s the implication there? The implication is the same one that every embargo opponent that claims he’s against fidel makes. That lifting the embargo is actually (magically) more destabilizing than for Castro than having it in place or making it stricter. And I say magically because 130 posts later nobody has even TRIED to explain how that would work. How financially strengthening Cuban government-owned companies by giving them our trade and travel dollars will help the Cuban people to be free beyond the few crumbs that might trickle down to them.
I’ll let our readers judge who the come pinga is.
Henry, the California sun, the tofu, and the chanting, have all contributed to change CaCubano into a liberalis imbecilis californianus. There’s no hope left…
Don’t forget the 80 degrees in October with absolute low humidity.
You got that right geroge. There’s no hope left for you extremists trying to brainwash others. We only have 2 things in common:
1) We all hate fidel and communism
2) We want to see democracy in Cuba
But some of us care about the Cubans in Cuba, and others don’t give a damn as to how much suffering they incur either thru the castro government or thru policies set forth by our country, i.e. the embargo, to topple fidel. I take that back, we only have one thing in common, we all hate fidel and communism. If your vision of a free Cuba is everyone has to agree with your position and views, then you don’t care for democracy in Cuba. Esp. since you can’t practice it here in this country.
So sad.
“I’ll let our readers judge who the come pinga is.”
conductor please stop your foolishness. That’s like the Christians being fed to the lions in the Colosseum.
This topic is over.
It’s only fitting that I try to make the ‘bookends’ to this very colorful and lively Article-posting, where it’s a welcome surprise to get a guest directly from La Habana (DotCu), who we welcome to share thoughts and opinions!
Hope to see you on others posts, DotCu!
As long as you agree with the norm DotCu.
George: I think we can make room for you here in california, we are big state. Tofu and Chanting not a requirement to live here, just a little rational thinking gets you a long way.
I’m accepting DCU is the real deal. My hats off to him, to me he represents the indvidual, a guy that’s trying to make and will make it despite the horrible conditions he’s living under. He must be a libertarain thinker Live and Let Live type guy, i’ll have a guarapo with him anytime.
ray
ray
cacubano,
I have just about had it with you and your insiduous comments. No one here has had their opinions stifled and if you feel that way then perhaps, just maybe, possibly, its because your arguments might be baseless or inane or just plain old bullshit or a combination of the three.
Have you answered the question I posted in the original entry after all your incessant rambling? No.
Convince us all here and show us precisely how lifting the embargo will foster change or STFU already with your shallow criticism.
Lets See…we lift the embargo and…
1) fifo and company start making trade deals with the US for food and start feeding the people? Don’t they already have deals? Is the regular guy eating more and better?
2)fifo doesn’t have “el chivo expiatorio”? Does this mean that he will then start blaming himself for the misery in Cuba? Will he start fixing everything that is broken?
3)Tourists from the USA will flood Cuba and the average joe will see what life is like outside and force fifo out of power? Have we not had 20 some years of tourism in Cuba? Don’t most Cubans have some contact with the outside World especially the USA? What has happenned? Whenever fifo feels threatened he either kills, imprisons, or exiles those who bother him.
I don’t know…but most thinking people (no matter how brainwashed) can see that there is really one major problem in Cuba…fifo
fifo and company will never change unless they are forced to do so. Tyrants are NEVER deposed with words or pleading to their humanity…because they have no humanity, they only care about power and strength. I don’t know what will happen in Cuba…but I’m sure that no change will come unless and until the Cuban People stand up and demand it.
Yikes! How simplistic to think that removing the embargo will magically improve the lives of Cubans. How absurd to think that continuing the limited embargo on Cuba will eventually improve the lives of Cubans. How easy it is for Cubans who live in the USA to call for Cubans on the island to rise up. How naive for someone living in Cuba, in a priviliged position no less, to think certain rightists comecandelas on this side of the charco will even begin to understand the complex realities of contemporary Cuba. And, how silly to think that certain USA educated lefties have any clues about the nature of contemporary totalitarianism in Cuba. There’s plenty of political inmaturity from all quarters. Por eso estamos como estamos.
By the way, I too grew up in Havana and it was indeed a cosmopolitan, rich, and beautiful city.
Sadly, there were also marginalized neighborhoods both within the historic center and in the suburbs. It is not difficult at all to make a case against the present dictatorial regime, so there is no need, therefore, to promote the fantasy that pre-Castro Cuba was something like Switzerland.
Finally, free speech is a wonderful right we can exercise in the USA, but why diminish it with unnecessary foul language? Que poca clase.
others don’t give a damn as to how much suffering they incur either thru the castro government or thru policies set forth by our country, i.e. the embargo, to topple fidel.,
Let’s take the time machine back to t0 1961/1962. No embargo ever gets placed on Cuba. The Cuban people are fat and happy today?
Give me a break. Mavi said it best. There’s only one problem with Cuba. fidel castro ruz. It’s not our policies that make Cuba poor. It’s fidel’s policies. And here’s another question: If the embargo is so damaging to the Cuban people why doesn’t fidel step down, allowing the political prisoners to be set free and allowing for the econimic and social reforms that are conditions for the embargo to be removed? Why can’t he and his brother step down for the good of the Cuban people? That’s the fastest, simplest way to end the bloqueo, isn’t it? The Cuban leadership has the power to unilaterally end the embargo yet it doesn’t exercise that power. Why is that? Hmmmm?
I am currently living in South Korea. I am a Cuban American. It’s funny but the Koreans, when they learn that I am Cuban American, understand entirely the situation. We talk about baseball, music, and of course, our distance from our people due to the polital/economic seperation imposed by the communists. Everyday, in light of the current events happening here, I can’t help but to reflect on the “what if’s” on the Cuban issue.
The South Koreans have tried what the lift the embargo folks want, direct economic assistance,athletics, interchange of ideas, travel you name it, they have done it towards reconciliation. Unfortunately, the only thing that the opening did was to give more time for that government of North Korea to survive. And actually strengthened it.
I can only come to one conclusion, dealing with these forms of government in a humanitarian way only prolonges the suffering of their people.
Right now I see some form of PR campaign to attempt to create an opening, through the Miami Herald and the Cuban government. Discredit the main oppositors and create the illusion that they are willing to change.
The Cuban governement was on the brink, when oil and tourist capital came to the rescue. If they get more, you can forget about seeing a free cuba.
hsilio,
Your comments are too cogent and make too much sense. You must be part of the nasty Cuban Mafia that is heartless and doesn’t see that the humanity of the situation.
hsilio, you nailed it perfectly.
hsilio,
If the cuban govt was on the brink till tourism and oil came in to save it, then what do we do, how should we deal with all the govts on this planet that deal with Cuba, and will continue to deal with Cuba with or without our blessings. The reality is that Venezuela, China, Canada, Mexico, Jamica, Italy, France, Russia, Korea, Japan, Panama, Chile, Brazil, Peru, South Africa, all of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined will continue to work with the cuban govt. and because that will continue whether we like it or not.
Who here believes that the United Nation’s has Cuba’s best interest at heart? When kofi annan visited fidel in his hospital room and not with the dissidents. Or when over 100 countires, 118 nations to be exact, met in Cuba durring the non-aligned movement to bash our country and praise fidel and his govt.
The problem is nobody listens to anyone. I don’t understand why everytime some one says “hey, this embargo has not worked, fidel is still in power after 45 years. Let’s try to look at a new way of doing things” and automatically individuals like george start going off like loonatics.
Regardless of this, I’d like to assure you that I did not create this game, politics. I don’t really care for it. I know my family and friends in Cuba are not communist, or anything else. And I as an American have the God given right to travel to Cuba or any other country on this planet to see my family, friends, or whatever it is I wish to see. If I even had the money, I’d travel to space like these new space tourist do. My wallet is the only thing that will dictate where I go and when I go, not a policy ill conceived to gather votes in a state 3000 plus miles on the other side of the continent.
If there is a campain to “discredit the main oppositors and create the illusion that they are willing to change”. I don’t know how anyone can create the image that the main oppositors are willing to change, but if there is a campain to discredit the those hard liners in Miami, they have no one to blame but themselves. The Cuban-American name in this country has been stained by those very hardliners. I firmly believe that Americans here at home have had enough of their tatics. When the courts had ruled that Elian Gonzalez was to be reunited with his father, and the exile community in Miami would not allow that reunification for whatever reason, that tarnished the image of the exile community. A vast majority of us saw them as people who will disobey the courts, the law, because of their solid hatered towards fidel. Yes, maybe most Americans in this country do not understand the events that occur in Cuba, or the suffering, but the image that came out of that event was very damaging. Not to mention the near riot that occured when Los Van Van had their concert at the Miami Arena, or the dancing that occured along calle ocho just 2 months ago.
I am not saying now or ever to give fidel what he wants, hell he’s almost rat food. But for the love of God, it’s time to change the way we do things. Get rid of the embargo which only stands for a cold war ideology, and get on with the business of new policies that will achieve the goal of transforming Cuba to a democracy.
Till then, I will continue to visit Cuba, stay at the house which my grandfather built for his mother-in-law, and visit my family and friends. Embargo or not.
And I know I’m not the only Cuban-American who feels that way.
You can rationalize it all you want but you are helping fidel when you do that.
It’s like a paying ransom to see your family. A new way of doing things. Ok like what? We’re here 150 posts later and you haven’t said what that new way is. How will the new way lead to the goal? WE’RE WAITING!!!!
Why doesn’t the U.S. lift the embargo for a short time period, say 6 months to a year? Then after that is implemented (that will probably take some time), tell Cuba (Castro, whoever) that the U.S. will reimpose the embargo if some number (or all) political prisoners aren’t released. That way the Cuban people can see how “good” it can be without the embargo, then there could be some way to equate castro with the re-imposition of the embargo – this is crucial, making the majority of the Cuban people realize castro is the problem. That would require lots of psy-ops and it won’t be easy. Maybe this has been proposed before, and perhaps it’s a crack-pot idea. But I’m just trying to think of ways to get out of the stalemate, because that’s where we’re at. Of course, there are a lot of assumptions in this “temporary lift of the embargo” proposal (for ex., that the goods entering Cuba will actually be for the people), and that this will not allow the Cuban people to become complacent about removing castro. (hope that makes some sense)
To be honest, I don’t like the embargo, but the alternative is to deal with the devil, so I myself am at a stalemate, too. Who does truly like embargos/sanction, and I mean truly enjoy and LOVE embargos?? Only the likes of heartless men such as castro… At times, it’s a necessary evil, unfortunately. I strongly believe that making people (Cubans and non-Cubans alike) realize that the problem with Cuba is NOT the embargo is the key towards some kind of victory over the devil. Right now, it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. ayayay!
Thanks for this discussion. Very interesting, indeed.
In what way do I help fidel? The same way those in Miami go to western union and send money by the millions to their families?
I pay no money to be picked up at the airport, my cousin’s husband drives a school bus and picks me up.
I pay no money to stay in my grandfather’s house.
I pay no money for food, as they do eat and have food. Maybe it’s not the best,moldy bread and juice in the mornings, rice, eggs and beans every night sometimes with chicken.
I pay no money to get around, because our neighbor has his car and takes my family and me where we need to go, and when he can’t we take the bus, paid by my family, you see a few centavos is better than taking a cab.
I pay no money for rum, as I drink the rum they make at home or at work.
I pay no money for soviners, since I can by all the Cuban stuff I want online here at home or when I’m in Miami.
When I do spend money, I give it directly to my family, which is the exact same thing you guys do when you send it via western union, except I cut the middle man out.
So let’s see….
Spend money on airfare. Okay the airline get’s its fair share of my dollars, so if they pay landing fees and taxes on the flight segments in and out of Cuba, I “give” the cuban govt. some $8-$10 dollars max.
Don’t judge homie cause you don’t know.
Oh, wait.
there is the visa fee..$20 dollars paid in Mexico, and the exit fee to leave Cuba, another $25 dollars, so your talking about $55 dollars max.
If it takes spending $55 dollars to see my family so be it.
“We’re here 150 posts later and you haven’t said what that new way is. How will the new way lead to the goal? WE’RE WAITING!!!!”
I don’t have the answer to a problem that was created over 50 years ago by greed, corruption, deceit, and political bull, just like you don’t have an answer either. But I do have a SUGGESTION.
If a policy that has been in place for over 3 DECADES, AND HAS COST MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO ENFORCE HAS NOT WORKED, GET RID OF IT, GET BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD, AND FIGURE OUT SOMETHING NEW. Simple as that.
What’s your solution to this mess? I’d really like to know.
Here’s another suggestion,
If we’re going to keep the embargo, ENFORCE IT NOW. Every provision from:
1) Allowing families who have had their land confiscated to sue foreign govts. and businesses who profit from their loss.
2) Do not allow for any more money, not a nickle or a dime to be sent to anyone in Cuba via western union or any other wire services.
3) Do not allow the privilaged few to dictate what our nation’s foregin policy should be towards any other country, including Cuba
4) Fine every corportation that does business in Cuba and ban those same companies from doing business in the United States.
We can start with the tourism sector:
Ban the following airlines from flying in and out of U.S. airspace:
Air Canada
Virgin Atlantic
Air Jamiaca
Mexicana Airlines
Copa Airlines
LAN Airlines
Iberia
Cayman Airways
TACA
LTU Airways
Air France
Aeroflot
Then we can concentrate on the land holdings of:
Sol Melia
Club Med
Sandals
Beaches
SuperClubs
Iberostar
Barcelo
Accor
We can impose fines on those companies since they have properties in our country.
Then we can go after the communication giants, AT&T, BellSouth
Close and fine all the shops and stores that send clothes and supplies to Cuba
Then CNN, (they should close anyways)
The list goes on and on…ENFORCE THE EMBARGO, strangle the life out of fidel’s govt and be done with this. Or else, just get rid of it and try something new.
I agree completely with your last post. I wish all of those things would happen.
Any dollar you spend or send to Cuba helps fidel. Like it or not.
I don’t have the answer to a problem that was created over 50 years ago by greed, corruption, deceit, and political bull, just like you don’t have an answer either. But I do have a SUGGESTION.
Your suggestion has been duly noted the first 20 times you made it. It’s not an original suggestion by any stretch. Excuse me for continuing to go back to the original post in which Val asked about HOW following your suggestion helps. Not a re-statement of the suggestion. Eres un disco rayado.
A. We lower the embargo.
B. ??????
C. Democracy and freedom for Cuba.
Tell me. What happens in step B?
Here’s my suggestion:
A. Leave the embargo as is or strengthen it even more.
B. Castro dies
C. Negotiate with whoever comes afterwards and maybe just maybe we get democracy and freedom for Cuba.
My suggestion doesn’t come with guarantees but it’s plausible. The idea that a successor with different motivations and ideas than fidel might be a catalyst toward change (Gorbachev?) isn’t as hard to believe as the idea that giving castro more money and access to credit markets will make him moderate somewhat.
P.S. Reagan didn’t get the Soviets to come to the negotiating table by unilaterally disarming. It was the opposite. He dealt from strength and the soviets HAD to negotiate.
“P.S. Reagan didn’t get the Soviets to come to the negotiating table by unilaterally disarming. It was the opposite. He dealt from strength and the soviets HAD to negotiate.”
Very true.
HOWEVER, durring the height of the cold war when Reagan was dealing with the soviets, we Americans were never bared from traveling to the u.s.s.r., there was no embargo in place towards the u.s.s.r like the one in place against cuba, and Reagan was, like you said, dealing with the soviets, “He dealt from strength and the soviets HAD to negotiate.”, not like us and Cuba. We are not dealing with the Cubans, why should we know when we have to deal with:
1) Iraq
2) Iran
3) North Korea
4) Afghanistan
5) Venezuela
5) Dealing with terrorist here at home
6) Rebuilding New Orleans and the Gulf region
7) Protecting our borders
You can bet that Cuba is at the bottom of the list. Regan dealt with the soviets, by words and action. We should deal with the Cubans, by words and action.
Enforce the embargo or get rid of it.
Hold on.
“C. Negotiate with whoever comes afterwards and maybe just maybe we get democracy and freedom for Cuba.”
What if Raul comes in next. Do we negotiate with him? Or with carlos lage, or ricardo alarcon then what?
Do you care who releases the political prisoners? Do you care who reinstates the right to own and sell property? Do you care who allows for a free press? Do you care who does any of the things that would put Cuba on the path to freedom? I sure don’t care if the guy’s name is Raul or Lage or Alarcon as long as the actions are taken. Show me something and then we talk about lowering the embargo. By the way Raul is an old man too and I don’t think any Raulist regime will last for long but that’s a different story.
The Soviet analogy only goes so far. The USSR was a superpower. That I know of the Soviet Union never nationalized American interests in Russia. Besides in the Soviet Union the personalities changed over time. There were times when the cold war was colder and there were times that it warmed a little bit. What has Fidel Castro ever shown you that you think he will change his ways now at the age of 80?
Estas muy equivocado, o quisas no estas equivocado. Quisas sabes exactamente lo que estas pidiendo: ayuda para el regimen de fidel castro para seguir con la misma mierda.
In fact if you look at the life of the embargo there have been times that it’s been weaker and times that it’s been stronger. According to your arguments wouldn’t a weaker embargo be a catalyst for change? Why didn’t things change when people could go any time they wanted and there was no enforcement of the travel restrictions? When Clinton took office for example the embargo was weak. The Helms Burton law would have never been signed by Clinton if it wasn’t for fidel’s action of shooting down the BTTR planes. If castro really wanted the embargo removed he would have acted differently in that situation. You can not escape the fact that any time in the last 45 years of embargo that all fidel needed to do was announce “I want to sit down with the United States and resolve our differences so that we can normalize relations and trade.” He wants the embargo removed but only on his terms. His ego will not allow him to give anything away in exchange so he tries to lobby for it with his cash food purchases, he uses his mouthpieces to write opinion columns in US newspapers, he uses his cronies in the UN to denounce it, and he even has people to post comments on blogs. The key is he gets what he wants and we don’t get what we want.
And a note about negotiation: In order to negotiate you have to someone on the other side of the table willing to negotiate. FIDEL FUCKING CASTRO doesn’t want negotiation, never has, never will. The sooner you get that through your thick fucking skull the sooner you’ll understand the only catalyst to change in Cuba is the absence of fidel castro.
So you think raul will be willing to negotiate? And even if he does, our policy is that we will not talk to raul either. So now what?
First of all, you need to stop cursing.
2nd of all, if you think anyone else is willing to sit down and negotiate, then your living a lie.
EVERYONE KNOWS THAT FIDEL WILL NEVER NEGOTIATE, But your under the impression that once he goes, whoever comes next will be a better option. You don’t know that for a fact.
Just like many people felt that fidel would be better than Batista. Oh well that went out the window.
You have no valid points as far as I’m concerned.
The embargo was week, then it was strong… who the hell cares. I don’t live in the past, I live in the present. I don’t understand how you would think that the next person to “lead, or rule” Cuba will sit down and say.. okay, will restore freedom and release all political prisoners, but you have to rid this embargo, then we will say nope, you release the prisoners first, then on and on like a broken record.
If that’s what it takes, who the hell will take the first step? You tell me. It’s not going to be them, they haven’t taken any steps or shown any motives to relinquish their hold on power.
So stop with your la la day dreaming and get when your ready to join the real world, come on by!