Recently some college kid wrote a column about lowering the embargo that got published in the Detroit Free Press. I sent the kid an email, giving him the Steve Clemons treatment. To his credit, the kid didn’t avoid the debate like Clemons did despite the fact that I called him a jackass too. Here is the response the kid sent me:
Dear Sir,
I thank you for your feedback on my article that was published in the Detroit Free Press.
The reasons that you listed for supporting the Cuban embargo cannot be dismissed, but I still contend that it is hard to argue (at least with a straight face) that Cuba should be ostracized because of its human rights violations when trade and commerce is encouraged with other oppressive regimes around the world. Why do we let one communist country (China) fill our shelves in Walmart while we don’t let another one send over a box of cigars?
I share your dislike for Fidel Castro, but I agree with noted conservative commentator P.J. O’Rourke who, after traveling to Cuba, said that if we changed our policy and allowed American business in Cuba, Castro and his henchmen would become irrelevant within six months.
May our common goal of seeing a free Cuba soon be realized.
Kind regards,
Paul
When I responded, I went easier on the tone since he took the time to respond and didn’t wallow in dissembling and self-righteous indignation like the lying Clemons. Here’s my response:
Sir, I believe you are badly misinformed about the reality of Cuba. First of all, anyone who has ever heard the phrase “two wrongs don’t make right” would know not to use trade with another despotic regime as a justification for trade with Cuba. But since you bring China up, let’s talk China. If you need a bunch of souvenir pens, let’s say, you know the kind that you turn upside down and the woman’s bikini disappears, you can go to China and make a deal with a Chinese citizen that owns a factory that makes souvenir pens. When you trade with “China” you are actually trading with an individual or company, who in turn employs other Chinese at the prevailing wage in China.
In Cuba, such private enterprise is strictly forbidden. All of the international commerce conducted by Cuba is conducted by the Cuban state through a variety of shell companies which it owns. A Spanish hotelier, for example, that runs a joint venture in Cuba is doing business directly with the regime. The regime provides the employees (the hotelier has to take the employees provided by the Cuban employment agency). The salaries of the employees are paid to government in Euros or other hard currency and the employee is paid by the state in near worthless Cuban pesos.
In short, the system in Cuba is set up to capture all of the cash and minimize any natural liberalizing effect that trade with that country would have.
With all due respect to Mr. O’Rourke, Canada, Western Europe, and Latin America have all been doing business with Castro, Inc. for the better part of the last 20 years and repression has not diminished one iota. Please explain to me how under the circumstances mentioned above, with the Castros dictating the terms of trade, American trade will do any better? What is so magical about American investment or tourism that can’t be found in Canadian, British, Mexican, Spanish trade and tourism?
Lastly there’s the little problem of the expropriation of American assets in Cuba, which is the reason the embargo was begun in the first place. It’s still the largest such expropriation without compensation of American assets in history. In today’s dollars it exceeds $8 Billion. In short, Cuba broke the rules of international trade and before we restore friendly trade terms, there has to be an acknowledgment and settlement of that debt, even if it’s for pennies on the dollar. Otherwise we would be rewarding the regime without any admission that what it did was wrong. By the way both China and Vietnam made settlements for their similar expropriations which opened the door to reestablish trade with those countries.
The reality is that embargo opponents don’t just want the embargo lowered. They want Cuba to be be able to buy American goods on credit. Of course Cuba is a terrible credit risk and many of the sectors which would benefit from such trade (like agribusiness) are highly subsidized industries. So when the Castros default, as the always do (and as they must because the economic system they stubbornly continue to implement simply can’t work) you and I as American taxpayers are the ones that get douched.
As I said, you have been misinformed. There is no magic bullet. The one constant throughout the last 48 years is Castro. American presidents have changed, policies toward Cuba have been liberalized then strengthened again. Other countries have “engaged and dialogued” with Cuba. Castro is the only variable that hasn’t changed. The embargo gives the US the one piece of leverage that it could use when the personalities involved at the top levels in Cuba change (i.e. when the Cuban Gorbachev comes to power) to speed reforms.
Rewarding an outlaw regime that has placed spies at the highest levels of our intelligence community, murdered American civilians, imprisoned scores of dissidents (all in the last 15 years) does not seem like a very logical decision.
Now I want to address the issue of China here, because it always comes up as point in this debate: We are hypocritical because we do business with China. Well two things here. First I’m not Chinese so I don’t really care and I haven’t seen any Chinese-Americans calling for a hard-line against China. Maybe they are out there but I haven’t seen them. If they are out there and they want support for a harder line toward China I’d be inclined to offer it.
Secondly, as I said in my response to the kid, China settled with the US for assets it expropriated when it went communist. How much were these assets worth?
In 1966, Congress amended the International Claims Settlement Act of 1949 to authorize the Foreign Claims Settlement Commission to undertake an evaluation of claims by American nationals for losses due to Chinese nationalization of property and other assets after Oct. 1, 1949. Claims by private U.S. citizens and corporations adjudicated by the commission totaled about $197 million.
Now let’s put that in perspective. In 1966 a congressionally appointed commission placed the value of American assets that were expropriated without compensation in China at $197 million but only a few years before Cuba had similarly expropriated an estimated $1.8 Billion (with a B) in American assets. The largest such seizure in the history of the American Republic. If $1.8 billion sounds like a lot, it should. That’s 10 times the amount the Chines siezed. And $1.8 Billion in 1963 dollars is $10.5 billion today when accounting for inflation.
But of course we just “opened up” to China and began trade, right? Wrong.
Treasury Secretary W. Michael Blumenthal reached an agreement with the Chinese on the settlement of American claims during his visit to Peking in March 1979. Under the agreement, which was officially signed during Secretary Krepsf visit in May 1979, the Chinese will pay 41 cents on the dollar for a total of $80.5 million.
As you can see we have a much bigger beef with castro’s Cuba than we did with China and in China’s case it prevented normal trade relations for 3 decades. There’s another fundamental difference between Cuba and China. And that’s the fact that by the time the US moved toward normalizing trade with China, Mao Zedong had already died, opening the door for his successor to implement economic reforms. With castro, Cuba’s Mao-like figure, still alive and his shadow over his would be successors, such needed reforms are not likely to come to Cuba and neither is any kind of acknowledgment of the debt for expropriated assets.
So don’t get fooled next time someone says “uh we trade China”.
The “noted conservative commentator P.J. O’Rourke” back in the 1970s used to be a long-haired pot-smoking hippie in Greenwich Village. When President Nixon went to China, O’Rourke wrote a phony story of traveling with the press entourage to China. He even posed for photo in New York City’s Chinatown to pretend that he was in China. The story was quickly exposed.
Those who insist on a tourist and business “invasion” of Cuba to bring about democracy, should first volunteer to do the same thing to bring about democracy in North Korea, Iran, and other totalitarian regimes. They missed their opportunity to use this method in Iraq.
Holy Macaroni! I am so late for work, but let me add to the comment. Cuba is the biggest exporter of communism where China and Vietcong……I mean Vietnam do not export their brand of communism like the evangelicals do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ worldwide. Castro & Hugo’s demonic red missionaries are hard at work to destroy freedoms.
(I cant believe these damn pop-ups are preventing me from writing…….)
Further more, if Cuba were to engage in trade with the U.S. that would add to their flow of income that would be budgeted toward the destabalization of Central and South America. China has a hard on for Taiwon and they got their red rocks off with Hong Kong……..but that’s about it right? Vietnam keeps to themselves.
Safe to say that our $$$$$ usd would go toward efforts to supply Hugo with more doctors, guns and Marxist books. Costa Rica would become a socialist country with much oppression and Columbia would be in a literal blood bath with the Farc. Peru would be fighting a cuban well funded shinning path rebels. Evo would buy more ugly gay looking sweaters (uuuggghhhhhhh!!!)
Again, the most current reason not to trade with Cuba is to not destabalize our back yard with Fifo-ism.
Peace!
While I agree with most the comments we will never see any real impact as we only have a pseudo-embargo. It is like chasing our tails for 40 some odd years. The embargo is nothing more than a matter of principle (which I support the principle). The only action that will ever bring about a free Cuba is removel of the castros and their kind whether by uprising or military action. Nothing less will ever change things. And I don’t believe that our pseudo-embargo will bring that about. With that said I support the embargo as that is probably the closest we will see to any victory regarding Cuba until what I mentioned ever does happen. The US’s infatuation with Posada is sickening. I do not know what Posada truely has done or not,but to curry favor with castro by going after him is ridiculous. He has been aquitted not once but twice. As for lieing to immigration? We better get 12 millions Mexicans in court next week if we are to follow the same rules. I am convinced that the US does not see a free Cuba as an important issue. Maybe if fidel calls us nappy headed hos there will be an outcry. Oh I forgot Jesse Jackson likes fidel.
Ive gotten so tired of arguing with these idiots that I have gotten to the point of saying,” you know what? Maybe they should do away with it so that I can give you a whole big can of I TOLD YOU SO!”
As a matter of fact, today, as I was driving along with a collegue that always tries to bait me with the subject of the embargo, I had an opportunity to do just that. Today we were talking about how the hurricane building codes don’t call for poured concrete type residential structures as they do in most of hurricane prone areas in the world. He was belly aching about the cost to the taxpayers and yada yada with the current codes and how unfair and a little more yada yada.
When the conversation turns to the embargo, he goes with his usual assault. Of course I tell him, you think the hurricanes cost the taxpayers some cash, wait until you meet hurricane castro and his taxpayer funded credit through ADM. His silence to me meant of course that now, he understood. Another interesting point of our conversation after his awakwning was of course, he didn’t know that the US is Cuba’s largest ag. trading partner. Cash only of course. He liked that part.
Please hear me out, and be honest about this assessment.
We can all agree that the regime is facing a critical juncture right now. That the dictatorship regime is extremely nervous about the times and their concern for ‘stability’ among the population is almost paranoic at this point.
Knowing this, I would offer, which would present the regime with the most FEAR to their stability and present the potential for uprising ‘influence’ on it’s population:
1) A U.S. policy that allows unrestricted travel of Cuban-Americans from the USA to Cuba?
or
2) A U.S. policy that very strictly restricts travel of Cuban-Americans from the USA to Cuba?
Which of these do you think the Castros fear the most?
Conductor, you wrote a very thoughtful response. But I have to take issue with one thing you said: that you are not Chinese so you don’t care about the situation in China.
I disagree. If we want others (non-Cubans) to care about our cause, then we should be an example and show that we care about other, similar causes.
To me, it’s about human rights. All human beings have inalienable rights to self expression, to make their own way in life, etc. That goes above and beyond national borders. It’s about all the people of the world.
To observe a crime in silence is to commit it. As Cubans, if our moral to be taken seriously by the outside world, we have to have the same moral standards for other countries. That’s why it’s important we support human rights in China, Cuba, and anywhere else there is injustice.
Well that was one of the best arguments for maintaining the embargo I ever read. It is why the Chinese have enough freedom to travel and make business and personal contacts all over the world while Cubans half the time don’t even get electric from their government.
LaConchita, Let me ask you a question:
If all travel restrictions are lifted who gets to decide who gets into the country?
Who gets to search all persons coming in for “material subversivo”?
So they get to keep all the dollars from the tourists while they keep out whoever they please for whatever capricious reasons.
Not only that, if you were born in Cuba, you are a Cuban citizen and could be subject to the same treatment as Cubans living on the island even though you may be an American citizen. To my knowledge there haven’t been many big incidents of this type but there can be.
So do you think castro fears an open travel policy that allows him to hold all the cards?
Doubtful.
LaConchita, Let me ask you a question:
If all travel restrictions are lifted who gets to decide who gets into the country?
Who gets to search all persons coming in for “material subversivo”?
So they get to keep all the dollars from the tourists while they keep out whoever they please for whatever capricious reasons.
Not only that, if you were born in Cuba, you are a Cuban citizen and could be subject to the same treatment as Cubans living on the island even though you may be an American citizen. To my knowledge there haven’t been many big incidents of this type but there can be.
So do you think castro fears an open travel policy that allows him to hold all the cards?
Doubtful.
Dave, I was exaggerating to make a point. But the truth is that I can never have the passion over China that I do over Cuba. For one thing it’s a completely different history and I’d have to do a lot of studying to get up to date on that history to speak with with any confidence on it. If Cuba, a country with 11 million people is a complicated issue, imagine china with 100 times the population has. And as I said, I would join forces with anyone to support more human rights and reform in China if they reached out for such support but in all my thousands of hours of surfing the net, I tend to find the only people that make such arguments are columnists for the Wall Street Journal and similar publications.
Dave, I was exaggerating to make a point. But the truth is that I can never have the passion over China that I do over Cuba. For one thing it’s a completely different history and I’d have to do a lot of studying to get up to date on that history to speak with with any confidence on it. If Cuba, a country with 11 million people is a complicated issue, imagine china with 100 times the population has. And as I said, I would join forces with anyone to support more human rights and reform in China if they reached out for such support but in all my thousands of hours of surfing the net, I tend to find the only people that make such arguments are columnists for the Wall Street Journal and similar publications.
LaConchita,
I also wanted to address the issue of vulnerability that you brought up. It’s true that no embargo and no travel restrictions will bring down the regime. But the regime is vulnerable because of the unstoppable hands of time. castro is on his last legs and raul can’t be far behind. We are going to want those restrictions and the rest of the embargo in place when minister X assumes power. Minister X is more than likely going to be more interested in governing Cuba in the here and now and toward the future. He will not be governing on the basis of confrontation with the US or looking at perceived or real slights from the past. At that point Minister X, despite his communist upbringing is going to start with some reforms and make some REAL concessions such as releasing the political prisoners. Then the US can start incentivizing those changes.
As long as the castro brothers are in charge, they will not bend to the demands of the rest of the world (at least the parts of the world that are condemning them).
Why, at this late hour would we want to lay down our hand when we have the ace. Cuba needs the US. The US doesn’t need Cuba. They get what they want when we get what we want. Plain and simple. When there’s someone on the other side of the table that wants to play ball like Gorbachev did then we’ll play but not before.
LaConchita,
I also wanted to address the issue of vulnerability that you brought up. It’s true that no embargo and no travel restrictions will bring down the regime. But the regime is vulnerable because of the unstoppable hands of time. castro is on his last legs and raul can’t be far behind. We are going to want those restrictions and the rest of the embargo in place when minister X assumes power. Minister X is more than likely going to be more interested in governing Cuba in the here and now and toward the future. He will not be governing on the basis of confrontation with the US or looking at perceived or real slights from the past. At that point Minister X, despite his communist upbringing is going to start with some reforms and make some REAL concessions such as releasing the political prisoners. Then the US can start incentivizing those changes.
As long as the castro brothers are in charge, they will not bend to the demands of the rest of the world (at least the parts of the world that are condemning them).
Why, at this late hour would we want to lay down our hand when we have the ace. Cuba needs the US. The US doesn’t need Cuba. They get what they want when we get what we want. Plain and simple. When there’s someone on the other side of the table that wants to play ball like Gorbachev did then we’ll play but not before.
Folks,
Reality is that travel restrictions and sending money to relatives etc.,serves as moral statements
only. It is our only way to get at castro while at the same time hurts some on the island that cannot do anything about their position. I am speaking of the elderly and ill not of the ones who can make a difference and won’t. These things will never bring about a free Cuba nor hinder it. We are on year 48 and the only thing that came near making a change was the Bay of Pigs. We can debate until we are blue in the face about travel, remittances, etc and the only ones listening are us. While we keep needed things from our relatives in order to hurt the regime the embargo busters make up for it with US sanctioned trade. While we do not visit relatives the sick socialist and Hollywood elite make up for it. Why do we not deal with the fact that unless the people on the island want a change it will not happen? They have lived like animals for 48 years and that has still not stimulated a change. Unless the embargo becomes a true embargo there is no hope. Unless we boycott and threaten long term economic isolation against those that trade with Cuba it is a lost cause. Unless someone, not likely the US, decides that they are people in bondage and need help in being freed it will never happen. We need to pressure governments not families.
Conductor, the dictatorship is happy to have the U.S. be the initial ‘restrictive’ filter for undesirable influence into their country. Most Cuban Americans will go to Cuba to visit their relatives and exchange ideas and experience of living in liberty. There won’t be any any “material subversivo” to discover with Cuba Americans, only the thoughts, exchange, and stories of experience of living in liberty. ‘They’ will be the “material subversivo” that the regime will fear the most.
I’m with Pototo on this issue. Family visits and remittances should be freely permitted. While Archer Daniels and others are free to travel to Cuba and do business with castro, it is the Cuban family that suffers. That is hypocritical.
Family contact and basic assistance should not be lumped in with other features of the so-called-embargo. I don’t agree with those who claim that a “flood” of Cuban-Americans visiting Cuba will somehow cause the overthrow of the dictatorship. The regime has strict controls over who visits, for how long and how many people are allowed in at any one time. But, maintaining family ties does help break down the wall of disinformation. These family ties will also be invaluable when the time comes for us exiles to return to a free Cuba with open hearts, minds formed in a democratic society, and the know how to help rebuild our country. Maintaining contact shows them we care, it fosters trust and helps us understand what is most needed.
Finally, I think it is practically and morally wrong to fantasize about a “pressure cooker” policy built on the backs of our family members. It hasn’t worked, and it won’t work.
That argument was made flake and Lisandro Perez at the debate in little Havana, saying that the 100,000 Cubans that visited Cuba had a big impact on Cuban on the island because they learned that those gusanos were good people making money and living well in Miami. Perez claims that it was those trips that made the regime face it’s most vulernable period. And Paul Crespo rightly rebutted that while it created dissatisfaction among Cubans, there answer was to come to Miami instead of trying to end the regime. You know this is true.
Besides Cubans can and do go to Cuba. Throughout the 90s they could go once per year. Now they can go once every 3 years. In Cuba they know all about life in Miami. They speak on the phone with Cubans from the states, they watch our TV on their pirate dishes.
The spread of libertarian ideas through unregulated (unregulated on our part) tourism is not compelling in my opinion. It hasn’t created change in the past and it’s not going to create change in the future. Only when the players change can change occur.
That argument was made flake and Lisandro Perez at the debate in little Havana, saying that the 100,000 Cubans that visited Cuba had a big impact on Cuban on the island because they learned that those gusanos were good people making money and living well in Miami. Perez claims that it was those trips that made the regime face it’s most vulernable period. And Paul Crespo rightly rebutted that while it created dissatisfaction among Cubans, there answer was to come to Miami instead of trying to end the regime. You know this is true.
Besides Cubans can and do go to Cuba. Throughout the 90s they could go once per year. Now they can go once every 3 years. In Cuba they know all about life in Miami. They speak on the phone with Cubans from the states, they watch our TV on their pirate dishes.
The spread of libertarian ideas through unregulated (unregulated on our part) tourism is not compelling in my opinion. It hasn’t created change in the past and it’s not going to create change in the future. Only when the players change can change occur.
La Conchita:
If the US ends the travel restrictions, then castro should end his on the Cuban people in and out of the island. As a Cuban, I REFUSE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO ENTER MY HOMELAND! I REFUSE TO PAY MORE THAN OTHER TRAVELERS (Cubans have to purchase a special passport even if they are American citizens), AND I WONT ALLOW THEM TO PIMP ME! I want to travel FREELY in and out of my country. Do you think the castros would take us up on that? Let’s say you, Val, Dave, and I, oh hell, maybe 100 of us land in La Habana and take a Sunday stroll with Las Damas de Blanco. After that, we’ll head on over to La Habana Vieja and Dave and his band can lead us dancing and singing to a funky groove, something like “A LA CALLE PUEBLO CUBANO, RECLAMEN SU LIBERTAD! You think castro and his gang would let that happen?
Jewbana, I loved that post! You have officially gained admission, free of charge, to my next concert. Are you in NYC or Miami? (or somewhere else?)
Jewbana,
“As a Cuban, I REFUSE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO ENTER MY HOMELAND!”
And its right that we need permission from our new homeland to visit our old?
“I REFUSE TO PAY MORE THAN OTHER TRAVELERS (Cubans have to purchase a special passport even if they are American citizens), AND I WONT ALLOW THEM TO PIMP ME!”
Is it right to refuse for others?
“I want to travel FREELY in and out of my country. Do you think the castros would take us up on that? Let’s say you, Val, Dave, and I, oh hell, maybe 100 of us land in La Habana and take a Sunday stroll with Las Damas de Blanco. After that, we’ll head on over to La Habana Vieja and Dave and his band can lead us dancing and singing to a funky groove, something like “A LA CALLE PUEBLO CUBANO, RECLAMEN SU LIBERTAD! You think castro and his gang would let that happen?”
Will silence bring that about? What Conchita was speaking of was one on one sharing of truths.
Hey Dave:
I’m in Miami. When will you be down here again?
I asked Jazid to keep me posted on your next appearane, but haven’t hear from them yet.Thanks!
You all will have to forgive me, but that whole “visiting Cuba and sharing of truths and promoting democratic idelas” is absolute and total HOGWASH. Cubans have been travelling back to Cuba since 1979. That’s twenty some odd years of sharing truths and promoting ideals. Y que ha pasado? NICOJONES.
And I dont know how many of you all live in Miami, but until the three year thing was put into place, the MAJORITY of the Cubans traveling back to Cuba from here werent going back to help spread freedom or share truths. They were going back to take money, whether it was for “family” or for jineteras.
And one other thing, when a cuban gets carte blanche treatment and is allowed to stay in this country, he or she stays here as a political exile. There may be some that will tell you otherwise because they got one kind of visa status or another, but the reality is that Cubans are allowed to stay here in this country predicated upon the fcat that there is political persecution in their native country. Thus, traveling back like some were doing every three months is an affront to the country that granted them asylum in the first place, and a huge slap in the face to other immigrants, such as Haitians, who risk their lives as well to get to this country only to be repatriated.
Youre either a political refugee or you are not. if so, here are the rules and abide by them, if not, then there’s the damned door, try to beat the Haitians and mexicans and Venezeulans and all the rest out on your way back home.
Then perhaps the rules need to be changed for those who feel that they as well have a legitimate idea about spreading democracy or at least to maintain a semblance of family love.
And “ni cojones” is being accomplished by the other means as well so that is not a valid argument for either. Lighten up a bit, there are many differing opinions and that is a good thing.
Val, makes a good point. When you come to this country and ask for asylum you are basically saying “anything but there.” Then a year and a day later the persecution magically disappears and you go back bearing gifts.
When you do come to this country you are accepting the laws of this country and the embargo is the law. Laws change as did this one. If it’s too unbearable to be apart from ones relatives, then one always has the option of going back permanently.
We can’t have this both ways. Cubans that come here nowadays are either political exiles or economic refugees. If they are refugees then we should get rid of the Cuban adjustment act and repatriate any Cubans coming here, whether their feet are wet or dry.
The Hatians have a good point on this and I tend to back them on it.
Maybe it’s time to end the escape valve of outward migration that castro uses to keep the most dissatisfied from boiling over?
Is there the political will in our community to that? I don’t think so, just like people don’t want remittances to go to Cuba but they can’t stop themselves from sending them. So in a way we are part of this catch 22. We fund the government of CUba though we don’t want to. We want to visit family though we don’t want others to go to Cuba.
Enough is enough.
Val, makes a good point. When you come to this country and ask for asylum you are basically saying “anything but there.” Then a year and a day later the persecution magically disappears and you go back bearing gifts.
When you do come to this country you are accepting the laws of this country and the embargo is the law. Laws change as did this one. If it’s too unbearable to be apart from ones relatives, then one always has the option of going back permanently.
We can’t have this both ways. Cubans that come here nowadays are either political exiles or economic refugees. If they are refugees then we should get rid of the Cuban adjustment act and repatriate any Cubans coming here, whether their feet are wet or dry.
The Hatians have a good point on this and I tend to back them on it.
Maybe it’s time to end the escape valve of outward migration that castro uses to keep the most dissatisfied from boiling over?
Is there the political will in our community to that? I don’t think so, just like people don’t want remittances to go to Cuba but they can’t stop themselves from sending them. So in a way we are part of this catch 22. We fund the government of CUba though we don’t want to. We want to visit family though we don’t want others to go to Cuba.
Enough is enough.
We can’t have this both ways.
Amen.
Pototo:
Give me a break, one on one shareing of truths has been going on for 48 years and counting! They know they’re oppressed, they know life is better anywhere else.They know their system doesn’t work. I have relatives there and I speak with them regularly. What they have is FEAR and lots of it. Let the castros take down their restrictions on us. They wont go for it. Because they are afraid of us. That’s why they want to pick and choose who gets in, how long and so forth. The castros have been making mince-meat of
our downtrodden long enough. Ans as long as they hold all the cards this will continue. So I say again, lift all the restrictions in US and Cuba. Let our family and friends in and out of all the hotels and beaches. Let’s march with Las Damas de Blanco, go visit Marta Beatriz, let’s start another Maleconaso. Think they’ll bite?
I know more than a few cases of people who are very anti-Castro in terms of what they say, but who are pumping as much money and goods as they humanly can into Cuba (and I’m not talking about sending medicines or meeting indispensable necessities on the island). They either can’t or won’t see the obvious irony, but I have a hard time listening to them talk patriotism, when they’re doing exactly what the Castro regime wants (and needs). They’re free to do as they wish, but if they’re going to dance to Castro’s tune, I’d just as soon not hear about how much they want him overthrown.
To say that anyone that helps family in Cuba needs to move back is myopic at best. While I have not sent remittances I do not begrudge someone else who does. Do we stop all disaster relief here in the US due to abusers? Of course not. But please tell me how in the world other than moral victory will starving out a relative will bring freedom to Cuba? I wish we had the same zeal and vigor against those who changed the embargo laws for profit. Its okay to do that, but not to change the laws for family members. That is having it both ways.
Val,
You have managed to miss my point and at the same time insult a whole lot of people with one very broad brush stroke.
My point is that Cuban families should not be used as pawns in the political battle between castro and Cubans, or castro and the U.S. We rightfully frown upon it when castro does it, but we bend over backwards to justify it when the U.S. does it or when “microfoneros” urge it as the best way to undermine castro.
You state that the “MAJORITY” weren’t going back to spread freedom or share truths they were/are “going back to take money to ‘family’ or for jineteras.” Really? Where to you get your statistics? And, more importantly why do you put the word ‘family’ in quotes? Are you saying that all who want to visit family are Johns who are looking for nothing more than a cheap piece of ass?
My one and only point is about helping FAMILY, maintaining FAMILY ties, bonding with FAMILY. If the trips and the contacts help educate a few people, help change some minds, help “spread truth” then that is an added bonus.
Finally, I am less concerned with a supposed “affront” to the U.S. than I am with maintaining the family ties. The U.S. does what it needs to do in furtherance of its national interests. It does not ask my permission, nor is it concerned that it might give affront by betraying La Brigada 2506, nor is it concerned that with a wink-and-a-nod it allows its big corporations to do business with castro, or by failing to implement Helms-Burton so as not to step on the toes of its big trading partners, etc. etc.
So while we should certainly be thankful to this country, we should not be overly defferential when it comes to matters Cuban.
Your post was not very persuasive. It was merely an attack on the character of those who view this issue differently. You can do better than that.
pototo,
So are you equating “family love’ to economic support for same? because my parents were never able to send their family in Cuba money, but they certainly didnt lose their love for one another. And even with no money from abroad, our family survived. Nobody died of hunger, nobody died of starvation. When they needed medicines, we sent them. When they needed eyeglasses, we sent them.
To say that anyone that helps family in Cuba needs to move back is myopic at best.
I think you need to re-read what I said which was: If it’s too unbearable to be apart from ones relatives, then one always has the option of going back permanently.
Nobody needs to do anything according to me. I’m simply saying that if you get here and can’t bear the conditions that are placed on you as a resident that perhaps the US isn’t the best place for you. Of course they can move to Mexico, or Canada or Spain. There’s no such restrictions from those places but last time I checked they don’t have an open door to Cubans who are seeking asylum.
To say that anyone that helps family in Cuba needs to move back is myopic at best.
I think you need to re-read what I said which was: If it’s too unbearable to be apart from ones relatives, then one always has the option of going back permanently.
Nobody needs to do anything according to me. I’m simply saying that if you get here and can’t bear the conditions that are placed on you as a resident that perhaps the US isn’t the best place for you. Of course they can move to Mexico, or Canada or Spain. There’s no such restrictions from those places but last time I checked they don’t have an open door to Cubans who are seeking asylum.
If you end the travel ban and Americans visit Cuba in droves, this is most likely what will happen. The average American could give a rats ass about the Cuban people and will be perfectly happy vacationing in restricted tourist areas. And once Cuba’s cash register is overflowing with all those good ole American dollars who do you think Cuba will not allow into their county? Most likely you, the exiles, because the regime will no longer need your dollars and they sure as hell won’t want us stirring things up politically. Think about that, and there won’t be anything any of us will be able to do except bemoan the end to the ban.
Val,
You SENT them help. That is all I am talking about here. I am not for subsidizing a lifestyle or to raise their class of standard of living. But when we cut off remittances totally we hurt even those who want to send eyeglasses and medicines. When it is declared who is family is wrong. No one can undo blood ties. And if I have a cousin (non-family member) who has no one else to send her glasses or medicines do I just say tough it? She should pull herself up on her walker and kick castro’s butt. A few weeks ago there was an outcry over attacking our own. Our own includes those with differing views as well as those still having needs on the island.
It is funny though that we are all arguing about things that will never change the situation in Cuba. Year 48, yes 48 and we argue over petty things because in reality the US and the rest of the world could care less about what is going on in Cuba. We need substance not style.
And here’s something else to consider. I don’t have close relatives in Cuba so I know I’ll be crucified for saying this but I think there’s more than a little truth to the following:
Some US based exiles are being played by their Cuban relatives on the island. The US based exiles work their asses off to send $100 a month while, the Cuban on the island makes $10 working a state job and usually not really working because let’s face it there’s no work going on Cuba for the most part. So they get the dollars and live better than those that don’t have relatives in the exterior. So you basically end up subsidizing a broken system and innoculating people from the disastrous consequences of that system.
The old adage of everyone has the government they deserve rings true here. We have culpability as group for maintaining the status quo and hiding behind family obligations and love.
You know what, I’d rather have my wife suffer through the pain of chilbirth once and have receive the eternal blessing of children than save her that short term pain and have her live life always wishing she could have kids. Same here. People in Cuba have suffered but they need to see that it’s their government that makes them suffer. Our obligation is put pressure on the government from the outside and theirs is to do it from the inside.
The family and love arguments are pretexts for giving castro inc what it wants without getting them to do something they don’t want to do.
And here’s something else to consider. I don’t have close relatives in Cuba so I know I’ll be crucified for saying this but I think there’s more than a little truth to the following:
Some US based exiles are being played by their Cuban relatives on the island. The US based exiles work their asses off to send $100 a month while, the Cuban on the island makes $10 working a state job and usually not really working because let’s face it there’s no work going on Cuba for the most part. So they get the dollars and live better than those that don’t have relatives in the exterior. So you basically end up subsidizing a broken system and innoculating people from the disastrous consequences of that system.
The old adage of everyone has the government they deserve rings true here. We have culpability as group for maintaining the status quo and hiding behind family obligations and love.
You know what, I’d rather have my wife suffer through the pain of chilbirth once and have receive the eternal blessing of children than save her that short term pain and have her live life always wishing she could have kids. Same here. People in Cuba have suffered but they need to see that it’s their government that makes them suffer. Our obligation is put pressure on the government from the outside and theirs is to do it from the inside.
The family and love arguments are pretexts for giving castro inc what it wants without getting them to do something they don’t want to do.
Henry,
so would you let your wife die giving birth in order to have a child? All you did then was amke a trade. Why not preserve her through the pain that you may enjoy both?
Jewbana,
“So I say again, lift all the restrictions in US and Cuba. Let our family and friends in and out of all the hotels and beaches. Let’s march with Las Damas de Blanco, go visit Marta Beatriz, let’s start another Maleconaso. Think they’ll bite?”
Why are we so afraid to try to do something different? Why are we so ‘ideologically’ frozen that our hearts are in one place, and our minds are stuck in the 1960’s. Almost 50 frickin years of CASTRO BEING PROTECTED BY THE USA from INVASION and INFLUENCE and we still think the regime will fall IF WE WAIT JUST A BIT MORE. Well, you know what, we’re here with our dunkin donuts and MTV and Walmarts, and we say let’s keep everyone out so the regime falls. All the while our people starve, forced to prostitute, and live like slaves.
I think our hate for castro may be greater than our love for Cubans.
LG,
My point is that Cuban families should not be used as pawns in the political battle between castro and Cubans, or castro and the U.S. We rightfully frown upon it when castro does it, but we bend over backwards to justify it when the U.S. does it or when “microfoneros” urge it as the best way to undermine castro.
The point is that castro’s regime uses families as a political pawn specifically because it knows the Cuban family bond, and with that assures the regimes continuation by forcibly separating said families and waiting for their exile families’ monies from abroad. The US does what is in its best interest.
You state that the “MAJORITY” weren’t going back to spread freedom or share truths they were/are “going back to take money to ‘family’ or for jineteras.” Really? Where to you get your statistics? And, more importantly why do you put the word ‘family’ in quotes? Are you saying that all who want to visit family are Johns who are looking for nothing more than a cheap piece of ass?
My statistics are quite simple and veriafiable: if the majority were traveling back to share truth and spread freedom, where are the fruits of their labor? How many Cubans in Cuba freely voice their opinions publicly? How many of them are working for change?
And if you counter that they dont do the above for fear of their government, then what good is sharing truth and speaking freedom if no one is willing to take the necessary risks and sacrifices to achieve same? Because its alot simpler to learn about truth and freedom and do nothing but wait for next months remittance than it is to actually fight for it.
My one and only point is about helping FAMILY, maintaining FAMILY ties, bonding with FAMILY. If the trips and the contacts help educate a few people, help change some minds, help “spread truth” then that is an added bonus.
Again, the castro regime is very well aware of most Cubans needing to “help, maintain and bond” with their families and it separates same ON PURPOSE because it assures an economic income. The Exile is Cuba’s NUMBER ONE export that annually far outgains any other export the island produces.
My post was not meant to persuade anyone or convince anyone and my stance on this issue has not changed from the onset of this blog. Nor has it wavered. Call me heartless, call me whatever you wish. It just seems incredibly self-defeating to have your family kept as hostages forever, with you paying a perpetual ransom and thus ensuring NO IMPETUS for the hostage takers to release their captives.
Val,
so the answer is let the hostages die?
Did you know that if you were born in Cuba and left that you can’t enter Cuba from a ship, boat etc.?
I’m not sure if you can enter if you have a Cuban passport.
So we couldn’t just take our boat and go to Havana.
What about Castro lifting that travel restriction?
“I think our hate for castro may be greater than our love for Cubans.”
Pototo,
That is the message that I am getting also. Our hearts are in the same place, but our minds differ. I left Cuba at the age of 10 in 1963. I visit Miami regularly, and still have many relatives in Cuba and in Miami. I would like to see SOMETHING PROACTIVE done to liberate our people. Anything from re-dux of April 1961 (this time the right way but with -0- American support) to a national peaceful movement, but the reality is, that our present policies will guarantee NOTHING except we have SEEN UP TO THIS POINT, with is NICARAJO!
Mavi,
So we must play tit for tat with castro. If he is being a moron regarding his restrictions we should do the same? Its a tug of war and the ONLY ones that lose are they who are being tugged.
The problem is the US won’t allow another 1961. Now thats wanting to see a free Cuba.
pototo,
so the answer is let the hostages die?
You know as well as I do that the hostages will not die. They may have to make sacrifices and be a little worse for wear, but they certainly will not “die.”
All Im sayingis that today you can send your family medicines and other necessities without traveling to the island. You can also talk tothem on the phone on a daily basis if you so desire. But the more money that is sent, the more money that goes to keep them enslaved. There are no two ways about that.
And on eother thing, freedom has to be fought for. No one is going to give it to you. if you want to be free from your bondage, then you have to fight for it.
Pototo,
That’s why I say with -0- American support. I don’t trust this country to do the right thing by Cuba. It would be great to get Dom Rep, and third-party arms suppliers to depend on stockpiling for equipting a full brigade. But I think this time it NEEDS to START inside Cuba first with inside help, and then bring in the re-inforcements to establish a beach-head. It would have to be in support of (and start of) some internal coup or revolt against the regime. I really believe that the “unrestricted travel” factor could be one of the helpful components to assist in this campaign.
La Conchita,
You dont make any sense. In one sentence you say that we should lift the embargo and in another you say that all our people starve, are forced to prostitution and live like slaves.
The embrago desont strave our people. there’s plenty of food in Cuba for tourists.
The embargo doesnt force our people to prostitute themselves. Our people prostitute themselves because their government makes them.
Our people live like slaves because thier government enslaves them, not the embargo.
Please let us all know how, exactly, lifting the embargo will end the starvation, protitution and enslavement.
Pototo,
I’m in favor of the “embargo” because it is the ONLY bargaining chip that we have.
You don’t need to go to Cuba every 3 months or even every year to keep your family ties. What about when it was castro who didn’t want any contact and you couldn’t get any information except a letter or two each YEAR. Why do we have to always let the communists set the agenda?
The only way that I would be in favor of lifting restrictions is if ALL RESTRICTIONS for Cubans were unequivocally lifted. If I wanted to take my boat to visit La Habana, why should I as a Cuban be kept out?
Con los comunitas es siempre la ley del embudo. I won’t play that game.
Val,
It is indeed illegal to send my cousin medicine. By US restrictions she is not a parent, sibling, or offspring. She also has none of her own so she is out of luck. And her health is decaying rapidly.
So in essence wait for her death. I don’t mean to sound too sarcastic , but that will sure show castro and free Cuba. So what about people like her on the political fringe of the rules?
Conchita,
Here I am going to use the word IMPETUS once again. If the Cuban people know they can rely on that remittance or Tio pepe coming from Miami every month and thus making their lives a little easier economically, then what impetus do they have to take to the streets?
pototo,
My family sends medicines to cousins and other family members in Cuba on a monthly basis. As far as I know, it’s all legal and on the up and up. You may wantto look into it a bit further.
Mavi,
Please re-read what you just wrote. Unless I misunderstood you, you are saying that unless you are allowed free and unfettered access, then you will not go at all. That is, unless castro establishes rules that allow you to visit family any time you want, then you won’t visit your family.
I don’t believe you can really mean that. You are upping the ante on castro by refusing to visit your family at all unless you can visit them at will. That is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I’m all for the embargo (such as it is) because it does keep money out of castro’s pocket. But, I can never agree with lumping the destruction and alienation of the Cuban family in with other embargo provisions. To me that is a completely separate and untouchable issue.
I think that all you guys are getting in a discussion that will take you nowhere. And so far all have very valid points. I you are over 50 and have close relatives in Cuba it is obvious that you want to visit them. By the other hand if you are young, willing to wait for a change and have no close relatives living there obviously you should not go. In fact you are morally obligated to avoid going there.
I agree with all other points of the embargo including the limitation in sending money to our relatives. But when it comes to travel each case is different. Cases of peoples going there every three month have not justification. But how can I explain to my 80 years old uncle leaving here that he probably is never going to see his 83 years old sister again because she may not last three more years. It should be a case by case or better jet based on the age of the traveler.
What I am trying to say is that travel restriction being the only thing that I have problem with should be reviewed in a more humanitarian way.
The paragraph bellow is from a post that Ziva posted just a few minutes ago. It unintentionally sort of justifies the lifting of travel restriction since they don’t help in the collapse of a government.
The assumption that tourism or trade will lead to economic and political change is not borne out by empirical studies. In Eastern Europe, communism collapsed a decade after tourism peaked. No study of Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union claims that tourism, trade or investments had anything to do with the end of communism. A disastrous economic system, competition with the West, successive leadership changes with no legitimacy, anti-Soviet feeling in Eastern Europe and the failed Soviet war in Afghanistan were among the reasons for change
So according to this tourism and trade doesn’t help but it doesn’t hurt either.
LG,
To me that is a completely separate and untouchable issue.
That’s my whole point. It’s only untouchable to the family and the regime knows that, not only that, the regime COUNTS on that. So, in essence, it is our love for our families that serves to keep them enslaved.
Val,
“I understand that I may send up to $300 per payee’s household in a 3-month
period to myself, my spouse, or my or my spouse’s child, grandchild, parent,
grandparent, or sibling, or the spouse, widow, or widower of any of the foregoing,
provided that no member of that household is a prohibited official of the
Government of Cuba or a prohibited member of the Cuban Communist Party.*
The total combined amount of Family Household Remittances I send may not
exceed $300 per payee’s household in a 3-month period.”
per US Dept. of Treasury http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/cuba/cuba.shtml
Looks like you are breaking US law if they don’t fall under those categories.
I’m with Val on this. We look silly claiming to be fleeing persecution, yet some of us insist on commuting back and forth to Cuba. To me, that is sheer hypocrisy. Those that insist on traveling back and forth are looked at like Mexicans or Haitians.
There is also the moral aspect of it. How could you visit a country that took what we had, enslaved our countrymen, etc., especially when you are forced pay them everytime you visit or send money? If it weren’t for the remittances from some of us here, I feel that the regime would have fallen after its Soviet “sugardaddy” fell.
Send family medicines? Yes. Cash? NO!
I have family in Cuba and they manage to survive
Read my last post. ITS ILLEGAL
LittleGator,
I don’t have any close family in Cuba anymore because the one’s who couldn’t get out have all died. They died before travel was re-established and we never saw any of them again. It was the Communists who did this.
I will NEVER go to Cuba as long as the Communists are in power. I was a child in 1966 when we left and cannot morally justify my going for any reason.
If my Grandmother had not died over 30 years ago and she was still there, I would have gone at least once to visit her.
But my family was broken up and even though most of my immediate family eventually came…it was never quite the same after decades of separation. I don’t believe that if we had been allowed to see them once every couple of years, that it could ever make up for the loss of contact that exile forced on us.
I miss not being able to grow up with my cousins and aunts and uncles…I see the ones who are here now, but we have no history together and it is not the way it could and should have been.
I don’t blame those who have their parents and/or children there for wanting to go. But you don’t need to go every year. Send money for essentials and help your family.
But some of the stories of going to Cuba to celebrate your kids 15’s and going to sleep with young girls are just reprehensible and I will NEVER agree with it.
Either you’re in exile or you’re not. WE CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
Oh and what I meant about the restrictions was this: If we are going to call for the lifting of restrictions…why only call on the US to lift restrictions? Why not ask the commies to lift their restrictions as well?
“You dont make any sense. In one sentence you say that we should lift the embargo and in another you say that all our people starve, are forced to prostitution and live like slaves.
The embrago desont strave our people. there’s plenty of food in Cuba for tourists.
The embargo doesnt force our people to prostitute themselves. Our people prostitute themselves because their government makes them.
Our people live like slaves because thier government enslaves them, not the embargo.
Please let us all know how, exactly, lifting the embargo will end the starvation, protitution and enslavement.”
Val,
The culprit for all that afflicts the Cuban people (lack of food / prostitution / enslavement) is the Castro regime. Make no mistake that I fault no one for this except the 2 Castro brothers and their willing accomplices inside and outside of Cuba.
My point is that, while we see all that is happening to our people (lack of food / prostitution / enslavement), it is not difficult to support policies that are not proactive or successful in any way to bring about a change to their situation and which do not require any sacrifices from our side while we have the comfort of our freedoms and every day comforts.
As to the question of how a change in policy will help bring about a change in Cuba.
This is a “critical moment” in history, this is the most vulnerable the regime has been in 50 years.
I will GAMBLE this “critical moment” on a CHANGE in policy that will ENHANCE CONTACT among Cubans and anti-Castro Cuban-Americans IN CUBA.
You can say that previous contacts had no consquence in the past 47 years, and I say our policies have had the same dismal result.
Pototo,
I come back from lunch to find my wife figuratively dying during childbirth and 50something other comments.
Is anyone in Cuba going to die if their relatives only get to see them every 3 years or if they don’t get to see them at all?
Is anyone going to DIE if they don’t get their $100 a month? Perhaps some, the most vulnerable, those who have lost their jobs as a result of speaking out against the regime. But we aren’t talking about those people are we?
What I’m saying is that sometimes you have to deal with some short term pain to have a longer term payoff.
You may give a homeless person $20 and feel great about it, but did you really help that person? Where’s that person going to be tomorrow? In the same gutter you found him. Are we visiting family and sending them money because we are helping them or is it only making us feel better about the situation?
As for guaranteeing what will work, nobody that proposes removal of the embargo can guarantee that that tactic will work either. In fact there is just evidence against that working as there is for the embargo working. None.
As I said in the post, the variable that hasn’t changed is castro. And I submit to you that as long as they are in power, no tactic will work. Trying to engage a successor government with the carrot and the stick is much more likely to achieve the result we want. Anyone that thinks that castro can be dealt with and trusted probably would give Charles Manson parole by saying what was in the past is in the past and that he’s somehow rehabilitated. People don’t change like that in my experience.
Pototo,
I come back from lunch to find my wife figuratively dying during childbirth and 50something other comments.
Is anyone in Cuba going to die if their relatives only get to see them every 3 years or if they don’t get to see them at all?
Is anyone going to DIE if they don’t get their $100 a month? Perhaps some, the most vulnerable, those who have lost their jobs as a result of speaking out against the regime. But we aren’t talking about those people are we?
What I’m saying is that sometimes you have to deal with some short term pain to have a longer term payoff.
You may give a homeless person $20 and feel great about it, but did you really help that person? Where’s that person going to be tomorrow? In the same gutter you found him. Are we visiting family and sending them money because we are helping them or is it only making us feel better about the situation?
As for guaranteeing what will work, nobody that proposes removal of the embargo can guarantee that that tactic will work either. In fact there is just evidence against that working as there is for the embargo working. None.
As I said in the post, the variable that hasn’t changed is castro. And I submit to you that as long as they are in power, no tactic will work. Trying to engage a successor government with the carrot and the stick is much more likely to achieve the result we want. Anyone that thinks that castro can be dealt with and trusted probably would give Charles Manson parole by saying what was in the past is in the past and that he’s somehow rehabilitated. People don’t change like that in my experience.
Mavi,
Thank you for your reply. I understand your point of view. Your history (as is mine) is the history of almost every Cuban exile who arrived in the 1960’s. There were close family members we never saw again.
I never again saw my maternal grandfather, with whom I was particularly close. I never again saw my paternal grandmother. As you might imagine (or most probably know from personal experience) this was particularly hard on my parents. There were uncles and aunts and cousins in Cuba we did not see for many decades. No matter what the U.S. government may claim, these people are all FAMILIA.
There was nothing that could be done about this. It was a harsh separation imposed by castro. But, now there is an opportunity to re-establish some of those bond. As you point out, there is still a loss. Nothing can be the same after decades of limited contact via phone or mail. But, it is precisely because of the great loss we all suffered that I refuse to accept that we should play castro’s game for the sake of political gains. If there is an opportunity, however constricted, to meet family, to share with family, it has to be enjoyed. I cannot accept that the U.S. government or other exiles seek to limit our contact with relatives.
I too believe your stance is the correct one about not travelling to Cuba if there is no family there. I would not go to spend a vacation or sightsee. It also goes without saying that there is no justification to travel there to stage my daughter’s 15th party, or to “sleep with young girls.”
Be well.
I have the good fortune of not having a close family member on their death bed, which is the ONLY reason I would lower my head and ask for pemission to go to Cuba. Since we left in 1966, I haven’t set foot on the island. My mother went back twice to see her ailing mother. The first time, they put her jail claiming she worked for the US government, (she was a social worker). The second time they stole all her luggage and then sent her back to the US on the same plane, never allowing her to bury her mother.
My heart goes out to those who must beg for re-entry for the sake of family.
Sure, I want to go visit and help my family and all Cubans but I wont ask for permission. How does one make that trip? Where would you put your pride and dignity while you visited the island. How could you watch your people struggle and prostitute themselves while you kept silent? I CAN’T.
Jewbana,
You are looking at it all wrong.
You aren’t “lowering your head to ask for permission.” Your very presence there (assuming you behave with dignity) is a reminder to the guy wearing verde olivo at the airport who examines your passport, that you are free and he is not. It is a reminder to the women who exchange your American money for CUC that you are able to make an honest living and they have to steal your luggage or cheat you in the exchange to survive.
Your presence there, without having to shout it out in the streets, is a living and breathing refutation of all that is wrong with that system.
I don’t understand the argument that you are somehow lowering yourself by visiting family. And, if I have to suffer some degree of indignity to visit my aunt or my grandmother, then I am willing to make that small sacrifice.
Yes, every case is different. Yes, in some instances, sending money, goods or paying for trips to or from Cuba is justified and legitimate (even though that still helps the regime). However, in far too may instances, those things are not necessary or essential. If they were only done when really, truly necessary, I estimate (based on anecdotal evidence from my experience) that the Castro regime’s take from exiles would be cut at least 50%, and quite probably more.
There are Cubans in the US working extra jobs, cheating on their taxes, going without health and car insurance, etc. just so they can afford to support others on the island. Again, I’m not referring to medicines, prescription glasses, or indispensable necessities. We’re talking perfume, cosmetics, fashion items, color TVs, entertainment items…in short, everything under the sun. There are people making trips to Cuba just like they would to some resort or vacation spot, or for other relatively trivial reasons. Most people are NOT going to see a dying parent or some such. In a lot of ways, ES UN RELAJO.
Everybody knows perfectly well this is EXACTLY what the regime wants. It wants those on the island to look to the US for help and solutions, NOT internally. That means the regime is let off the hook, as people in Cuba make their US contacts, NOT the Cuban system, responsible for their welfare. The regime doesn’t have to do a damn thing to improve conditions in Cuba, just keep the repressive apparatus in good working order.
What good is it to say horrible things about Castro in Miami if you’re supporting him economically? Again, everyone can do as they see fit, but there’s a LOT of room for improvement. However, this is all basically moot, because the remittances and so forth will only increase. Emotional blackmail works very well, especially with people of our culture, and seriousness is not one of our greatest strengths. The RELAJO. unfortunately, is impossible to stop, no matter how many restrictions the US government comes up with.
Little Gator:
I’m not wrong. If I wanted to go to Cuba, I would have to ask the Cuban government for permission, and yes I would have to pay a higher price, allow them to search me or confiscate my property beacuse I’m a Cuban exile. NO WAY! Like I said before, thank G-d I don’t have close relatives on their death bed. No pido permiso para entrar EN MI CASA. And I couldn’t be silent while I witnessed the oppresion of my people. Cuando vaya a Cuba, voy a entrar por la puerta principal, y sin esconder mis deseos de ver a mi pueblo libre.
BTW, whenever you purchase anything related to ADM or the cowards who are busting the embargo – legally? – you are contibuting to castro. Makes a boycott more palateable.
Nothing changed since 69 when I left there, Im still a refugee from a rotten place, trading with China is inmoral and trading with the VC/NVA is inmoral, ADM off course has no morals as well as all the scum that trades with castro. Going to Cuba while the castro clan rules is a humilation, if thre are sheep out there that need to go to their own country after being humilated into asking for a visa from the Animal Farm then go you sheep, I wont go.
Pototo,
I’m pretty sure that you are wrong on the sending of medicine. The familiy definition only comes into play with regards to travel.
Pototo,
I’m pretty sure that you are wrong on the sending of medicine. The familiy definition only comes into play with regards to travel.
Vic be serious, that’s not what the paragraph or the article implies at all. It is an undisputed fact that the cash from travel and tourism props up the regime. I’m not a Soviet expert so I don’t know how much income there was going into their coffers during the cold war from visitors, but however much it was it sure wasn’t going to the workers.
More cash to castro inc means more money to repress (remember the monte rouge video where they tell the dupe that they can only afford to install two microphones in his house). More money to subvert. More money to propagandize.
No, I’d say enriching castro, inc. can certainly hurt.
More cash to castro inc means more money to repress (remember the monte rouge video where they tell the dupe that they can only afford to install two microphones in his house). More money to subvert. More money to propagandize.
No, I’d say enriching castro, inc. can certainly hurt.
Henry,
“From the US Dept. of Commerce
http://www.access.gpo.gov/bis/ear/pdf/740.pdf
(B) Eligible commodities. The commodity must be of a type and in quantities normally given as gifts between individuals. In addition, eligible commodities are as follows:
(1) For Cuba, the only eligible commodities are food (including vitamins), medicines, medical supplies and devices (including hospital supplies and equipment and equipment for the handicapped), receive-only radio equipment for reception of commercial/civil AM/FM and short wave publicly available frequency bands, and batteries for such equipment.
(A) Limits on gift parcel recipients. A gift parcel may be sent only to a grandparent, grandchild, parent, sibling, spouse, or child of the donor.
From various sources:
The new Commerce Department rules, which took effect July 1, bar people from shipping items including clothing, seeds, veterinary medicine and soap-making ingredients to Cubans.
No items at all can be shipped to relatives who are not parents, grandchildren, spouses or other immediate relatives. And nonfood gifts cannot be shipped more than monthly to each household of relatives – down from the current limit of once a month per individual relative.”
Well I stand corrected, but I can tell you as a matter of practice that there is no way of enforcing that. Until last week I worked for a client that is a large pharmacy chain. When they entered the Miami market a couple of years ago they asked me to find out about the process of sending medicine to Cuba (in order to compete with the mom and pop pharmacies that offer the service). Well it turns out that there’s only a couple of companies that do the shipping to Cuba. The main one is called Wilson International and not a single person there speaks English. I had to translate for my clients. We talked about all the legalities, what could be sent, what couldn’t. How much it cost by weight to send stuff etc. The topic of who the medicine was going to never came up. When you turn in the prescription you say that it’s going to Cuba and you fill out an order form with the address of the recipient. You pay for the prescription and the shipping and that’s it. Have you actually tried to send medicine to your cousin? They actually turned you away?
Well I stand corrected, but I can tell you as a matter of practice that there is no way of enforcing that. Until last week I worked for a client that is a large pharmacy chain. When they entered the Miami market a couple of years ago they asked me to find out about the process of sending medicine to Cuba (in order to compete with the mom and pop pharmacies that offer the service). Well it turns out that there’s only a couple of companies that do the shipping to Cuba. The main one is called Wilson International and not a single person there speaks English. I had to translate for my clients. We talked about all the legalities, what could be sent, what couldn’t. How much it cost by weight to send stuff etc. The topic of who the medicine was going to never came up. When you turn in the prescription you say that it’s going to Cuba and you fill out an order form with the address of the recipient. You pay for the prescription and the shipping and that’s it. Have you actually tried to send medicine to your cousin? They actually turned you away?
Henry and Val,
That is my point in that it is illegal yet that in and of itself should bother the daylights out of us. It is illegal for Cuban Americans to help arm their countrymen for revolt, it is illegal for Cuban Americans to go and fight aginst the regime, it is illegal for Cuban Americans to send medicine to someone the US has not deemed to be family. It is illegal for Cuban Americans to go see a sick relative in Cuba outside of what is deemed family as well as what is deemed soon enough by the US. Please don’t get me wrong, I love the US. They let us in when I was just a baby. But we are part of the Cuban diaspora and many, not all, consider ourselves exiles and wish to someday return to Cuba. Yet we oftentimes blindly accept what is being dictated to us by our government (US). We hear that this or that is in the best interest of the US. Well we are the US! And much of what I mentioned is not in our best interest. Why as someone said do we now have problems raising money for a project like Nostalgia because its been 48 years of nothing and people are losing hope. Outside of faithful people who post here and other places we are losing our heritage and passion bit by bit. I understand some will never consider going back to Cuba to stay. Some may say that I have to look out for whats best for the US. As Stonewall Jackson said when confronted regarding his loyalty to the Union “I love the Union, but I love Virginia more”. Well I love the US, but I love my free Cuba more. We are the US for now and things like the restrictive medicine policies are not in our best interests. Have I been hindered in sending medicines? I will take the fifth on that one. The issue is that it is illegal and that should insult the daylights out of Cuban Americans.
I don’t blindly follow what is dictated by the government. As you know we look at these things frontward and backward. There are many things I disagree with the government on.
But you talking about a lot of different things here. One is the embargo and the other is restrictions against arming and planning an insurgency. I agree with the government on one and disagree on the other. I don’t blindly follow the government’s lead.
We can always come up with heartbreak stories about how the embargo and the travel restrictions hurt a particular individual but they hurt the regime much more. That’s why the regime wants them ended. It’s not because of newfound sense of humanitarianism in the castro brothers.
If we lower the travel restrictions to facilitate that travel for those few hardship cases one is doing the work of the regime because they will benefit from the 99.9% of the rest of the travel that isn’t part of that hardship.
There are two camps in this debate. In both camps there are freedom-loving people that want the castro nightmare to end. But in one camp there’s a bunch of people who make the same debating points about family and separation and “rational” policies but don’t feel the same way about the regime. Lisandro Perez is an example, when he refused to condemn castro as a totalitarian dictator at the recent debate. He’s sitting on the anti-embargo side of the fence, and he’s basically an apologist for the regime, if not an agent for it.
Dime con quien andas…
I don’t blindly follow what is dictated by the government. As you know we look at these things frontward and backward. There are many things I disagree with the government on.
But you talking about a lot of different things here. One is the embargo and the other is restrictions against arming and planning an insurgency. I agree with the government on one and disagree on the other. I don’t blindly follow the government’s lead.
We can always come up with heartbreak stories about how the embargo and the travel restrictions hurt a particular individual but they hurt the regime much more. That’s why the regime wants them ended. It’s not because of newfound sense of humanitarianism in the castro brothers.
If we lower the travel restrictions to facilitate that travel for those few hardship cases one is doing the work of the regime because they will benefit from the 99.9% of the rest of the travel that isn’t part of that hardship.
There are two camps in this debate. In both camps there are freedom-loving people that want the castro nightmare to end. But in one camp there’s a bunch of people who make the same debating points about family and separation and “rational” policies but don’t feel the same way about the regime. Lisandro Perez is an example, when he refused to condemn castro as a totalitarian dictator at the recent debate. He’s sitting on the anti-embargo side of the fence, and he’s basically an apologist for the regime, if not an agent for it.
Dime con quien andas…
Henry?
Are you insinuating con quien ando? I sure hope not.
I’m not insinuating anything. I’m saying that anyone that is against the embargo needs to take a hard look at the person standing to their right and the person standing to their left making the same arguments that they are and see if they have the same motivations for making those arguments. I may be wrong but I have yet to find a fidelista or one of these useful idiots arguing for the embargo. But there are plenty of them arguing against it.
So you would have to believe one of two things. Either the fidelista’s are being duped into arguing for a policy that will unknowingly bring down the regime or the honest anti-castro anit-embargo folks are being duped into a strategy that strengthens the regime. Now people like Lisandro Perez have PHDs and so forth and their discourse mirrrors the official discourse of the regime. So you tell me, who do is duping who?
I’m not insinuating anything. I’m saying that anyone that is against the embargo needs to take a hard look at the person standing to their right and the person standing to their left making the same arguments that they are and see if they have the same motivations for making those arguments. I may be wrong but I have yet to find a fidelista or one of these useful idiots arguing for the embargo. But there are plenty of them arguing against it.
So you would have to believe one of two things. Either the fidelista’s are being duped into arguing for a policy that will unknowingly bring down the regime or the honest anti-castro anit-embargo folks are being duped into a strategy that strengthens the regime. Now people like Lisandro Perez have PHDs and so forth and their discourse mirrrors the official discourse of the regime. So you tell me, who do is duping who?
Henry,
I am speaking of medicine for non-immediate family not busting the embargo. Why is it that we cannot just say that it was a stupid decision on the part of the US to call anyone outside of parents, children, grandparents, and siblings to be non-family. And just as stupid to prohibit the sending of medicines. Not beer, not gold chains, not cellphones, not walkmans, etc, but medicine.
Why not also say that it is a stupid policy to allow certain high dollar lobbying interests to bust the embargo and thus defeat the purpose. Is that anti-Cuban or pro-castro? Quite the contrary actually as my position strengthens the embargo and takes away propaganda excuses for castro.
Pototo,
I can say it’s stupid and I will, it’s stupid. But part of the restriction I’m sure is to prevent the black marketeering of medicines in Cuba (remembering that some policeman or general is getting a cut of such activities). But to remove that part of the restriction would require an act of congress. And as you know right now the congress isn’t the friendliest of hands when it comes to our cause. I don’t think it’s a good time to make technical adjustment to the law. Can of worms.
Pototo,
I can say it’s stupid and I will, it’s stupid. But part of the restriction I’m sure is to prevent the black marketeering of medicines in Cuba (remembering that some policeman or general is getting a cut of such activities). But to remove that part of the restriction would require an act of congress. And as you know right now the congress isn’t the friendliest of hands when it comes to our cause. I don’t think it’s a good time to make technical adjustment to the law. Can of worms.
It seems that every time there’s an embargo post here it is a sure producer of tons of passionate comments on both sides of the issue.
My position is that either way: leaving the embargo or removing it, is going to be of no help to end the Castro regime.
However, any kind of insinuations from Henry, are completely out of place. You know what: I am not sure whether the embargo is helping or not, but I am as anti-castro or more than you and despise persons like Steve Clemons as much as you do. I don’t care who else is arguing for the end of the embargo: Steve Clemons, Cindy Sheehan or castro himself.
And also something that no one has mentioned here, I think that the castros don’t want the embargo to end. According to them that’s the reason of all of Cuba’s miseries, right? So if the embargo ends they need to look somewhere else to put the blame. All “end the embargo” propaganda is just that: propaganda. They don’t want that to happen but are outsmarting a look of folks on both sides. “Fidel wants the embargo to end, so I should say I don’t want that”, yeah right….
Again I’m not insinuating anything. I’m stating the fact that some people that are fidelistas are making the same arguments that anti-fidelista are making. There’s no disputing that.
And if you think fidel really wants the embargo in place then why spend so much money and energy lobbying for it’s end? Why enlist the help of as many US governors and congressmen from different states in that effort?
Are you kidding me? Do you think the Democrats and liberals have the answer to ending the regime and that we’re the ones that are too stupid to realize it?
Please.
Dime con quien andas…
Again I’m not insinuating anything. I’m stating the fact that some people that are fidelistas are making the same arguments that anti-fidelista are making. There’s no disputing that.
And if you think fidel really wants the embargo in place then why spend so much money and energy lobbying for it’s end? Why enlist the help of as many US governors and congressmen from different states in that effort?
Are you kidding me? Do you think the Democrats and liberals have the answer to ending the regime and that we’re the ones that are too stupid to realize it?
Please.
Dime con quien andas…
“[S]ome people that are fidelistas are making the same arguments that anti-fidelista[s] are making.” “Dime con quien andas. . . .” Very flawed argument Henry.
Some people (myself included) believe and argue that restrictions on family contact and assistance are wrong, for a number of reasons. That is not the same as arguing for a complete lifting of the embargo (porous as it is).
Using your “logic” Roosevelt and Churchill were blood thirsty, murdering, Stalinist thugs because they opposed Hitler, just as Stalin did. They not only argued for Hitler’s demise, but they pacted with Stalin and committed troops and resources to achieve the same goal. Dime con quien andas . . .?? Silly isn’t?
When Lisandro Perez argues that “that restrictions on family contact and assistance are wrong” do you think he says that because he gives a flying fuck about you or your family or because he’s a mouthpiece for the regime in the US and that’s an easy angle to exploit in trying to get public sentiments roused against the embargo.
The Roosevelt analogy is so flawed that it’s not worth addressing but I will. There was a common enemy and so two dissimilar forces joined to combat it. What I’m talking about is people pretending they have similar goals in mind when their goals couldn’t be more different. One group using another to achieve an outcome which is unfavorable to the group being used.
If Lisandro Perez is happy with the outcome of the lowering of the embargo (the outcome, what happens to Cuba after the embargo is removed) then I assure you that you won’t be happy.
When Lisandro Perez argues that “that restrictions on family contact and assistance are wrong” do you think he says that because he gives a flying fuck about you or your family or because he’s a mouthpiece for the regime in the US and that’s an easy angle to exploit in trying to get public sentiments roused against the embargo.
The Roosevelt analogy is so flawed that it’s not worth addressing but I will. There was a common enemy and so two dissimilar forces joined to combat it. What I’m talking about is people pretending they have similar goals in mind when their goals couldn’t be more different. One group using another to achieve an outcome which is unfavorable to the group being used.
If Lisandro Perez is happy with the outcome of the lowering of the embargo (the outcome, what happens to Cuba after the embargo is removed) then I assure you that you won’t be happy.
“If Lisandro Perez is happy with the outcome of the lowering of the embargo (the outcome, what happens to Cuba after the embargo is removed) then I assure you that you won’t be happy.”
I don’t know (or care) who Lisandro Perez is. I said: I am not sure whether leaving or removing the embargo is going to help to end the regime and that I think the embargo is helping castro put the blame of Cuba’s misery on the US. If you want to read more into that, you are more than welcome to it.
But you are making yourself look too bad by making comparison and accusing people who don’t agree with you on this single issue of agreeing with liberals or not really wanting to end the regime or not really wanting the same outcome for Cuba as you do.
Dude, go back and read what I wrote.
Lisandro Perez will be happy because he used you and your family situation to accomplish the mission of fidel castro, to get the embargo removed without any concessions from Cuba. He’ll be happy because instead of weakening the regime as so many embargo opponents think will happen, it will only make it stronger and open the door to the US getting played like a cheap fiddle again. The outcome when the embargo is lowered without such concessions is that Democracy will be further away for Cuba and not closer. Your motives are pure but the untinded consequences will be disatrous to your desired outcome which is freedom for Cuba. The people standing next you spouting the same slogans may not have the same pure motives as you.
If you don’t like my opinion, fine. Don’t read my posts but don’t take what I say and twist it around.
Dude, go back and read what I wrote.
Lisandro Perez will be happy because he used you and your family situation to accomplish the mission of fidel castro, to get the embargo removed without any concessions from Cuba. He’ll be happy because instead of weakening the regime as so many embargo opponents think will happen, it will only make it stronger and open the door to the US getting played like a cheap fiddle again. The outcome when the embargo is lowered without such concessions is that Democracy will be further away for Cuba and not closer. Your motives are pure but the untinded consequences will be disatrous to your desired outcome which is freedom for Cuba. The people standing next you spouting the same slogans may not have the same pure motives as you.
If you don’t like my opinion, fine. Don’t read my posts but don’t take what I say and twist it around.
I think the embargo is helping castro put the blame of Cuba’s misery on the US.
Who believes that the US is the source of Cuba’s misery? The Cuban people? Doubtful, most of them want to come to the US.
The international community? Yes they may believe this but so what? What are we trying to prove to them? If they can’t see that it’s castro and his dumbass policies that cause the misery why are we obligated to make them see the light? Can they wave a magic wand and make castro go away? Are they the final arbiter of what is right and just?
If people are to dumb to see that what we are doing is right and don’t want to join us, we don’t have the obligation to join them in doing what is wrong.
I think the embargo is helping castro put the blame of Cuba’s misery on the US.
Who believes that the US is the source of Cuba’s misery? The Cuban people? Doubtful, most of them want to come to the US.
The international community? Yes they may believe this but so what? What are we trying to prove to them? If they can’t see that it’s castro and his dumbass policies that cause the misery why are we obligated to make them see the light? Can they wave a magic wand and make castro go away? Are they the final arbiter of what is right and just?
If people are to dumb to see that what we are doing is right and don’t want to join us, we don’t have the obligation to join them in doing what is wrong.
And you not knowing who Lisandro Perez and the others who think and speak like him is, is part of the problem. I’m telling you that you have enemies in your camp and you are telling me I don’t know who that is so I don’t care. That doesn’t change the fact that there are enemies in your camp telling you what you want to hear but they are secretly trying to derail your true purpose.
Here’s a clarification for you.
There are people who want to see Cuba be free and democratic. And there are people who want the regime and communism to persist in Cuba. But those people don’t say that. They disguise themselves as academics, as columnists in the newspapers, as commentators on radio etc.
We are arguing about a specific tactic that may or may not be used the embargo. Removal or keeping of the embargo is not in and of itself the goal for either side. It’s a means to the end which as I stated is the continuation or the end of the dictatorship.
We can argue whether the embargo as a tactic helps further the cause of the castroites or those that want freedom but what we can’t argue is that castro spends a lot of time, energy and money promoting the side of the argument against the embargo. And I don’t think he’d do that if he didn’t really want the embargo removed.
And you not knowing who Lisandro Perez and the others who think and speak like him is, is part of the problem. I’m telling you that you have enemies in your camp and you are telling me I don’t know who that is so I don’t care. That doesn’t change the fact that there are enemies in your camp telling you what you want to hear but they are secretly trying to derail your true purpose.
Here’s a clarification for you.
There are people who want to see Cuba be free and democratic. And there are people who want the regime and communism to persist in Cuba. But those people don’t say that. They disguise themselves as academics, as columnists in the newspapers, as commentators on radio etc.
We are arguing about a specific tactic that may or may not be used the embargo. Removal or keeping of the embargo is not in and of itself the goal for either side. It’s a means to the end which as I stated is the continuation or the end of the dictatorship.
We can argue whether the embargo as a tactic helps further the cause of the castroites or those that want freedom but what we can’t argue is that castro spends a lot of time, energy and money promoting the side of the argument against the embargo. And I don’t think he’d do that if he didn’t really want the embargo removed.
You can say that I want to twist your post or put it anyway you like but “Dime con quien andas y te dire quien eres” doesn’t have too many interpretations. Does it?
“If people are to dumb to see that what we are doing is right and don’t want to join us, we don’t have the obligation to join them in doing what is wrong.”
And if you think that people who don’t agree 100% with you are dumb you should really see someone.
More twisting.
Dime con quien andas is a warning to be careful with who you associate lest you be considered one of them. I’m glad Lisandro Perez and his ilk aren’t on my side.
And when I said “”If people are to dumb to see that what we are doing is right and don’t want to join us, we don’t have the obligation to join them in doing what is wrong.”
I was speaking of countries like Spain that do business with the tyrant and enable his tyranny. Just because they do it we don’t have to. Did your mother ever tell you “If they jump off a bridge would you do it too?”
More twisting.
Dime con quien andas is a warning to be careful with who you associate lest you be considered one of them. I’m glad Lisandro Perez and his ilk aren’t on my side.
And when I said “”If people are to dumb to see that what we are doing is right and don’t want to join us, we don’t have the obligation to join them in doing what is wrong.”
I was speaking of countries like Spain that do business with the tyrant and enable his tyranny. Just because they do it we don’t have to. Did your mother ever tell you “If they jump off a bridge would you do it too?”