I hope he’s wrong

Juan O. Tamayo reports that recent celebrations in Cuba for La Caridad del Cobre, Cuba’s patron saint, may signal a rise in hope by Cubans on the island that the Catholic Church take a bigger role in Cuba.

Considering the Church’s past history in Cuba, and especially its recent partnership with the Castro dictatorship where it has become the regime’s messenger and foreign envoy, let’s hope he is wrong.

19 thoughts on “I hope he’s wrong”

  1. I’m going to state my position very clear to all.

    I’m very loyal Roman Catholic but I condemn the actions of the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Cuba in complicity with Cagastro’s tyranny.

    I also condemn the actions of some of the top hierarchy in the Vatican that are sympathetic to Cagastro’s tyranny.

    I also feel that Cardinal Ortega in Cuba deserves excommunication from the Church and severe bodily punishment for his treacherous sinful actions in complicity with Cagastro’s tyranny.

    Will I leave my Church? NO.

    But I’ll condemn and work to expose the actions of these treacherous individuals within my Church and approve of their excommunication and expulsion.

    The problems with the Roman Catholic Church today are because of some of their leaders that deserve expulsion from the institution because of their sinful acts, not because of the Church itself. There are many good priests around the world (and throughout history) doing Jesus Christ work on earth that don’t deserve to pay for the sins of their institution caused by some rotten apples in it.

    YES the Roman Catholic Church has a long history of allying with Cuba’s oppressors since the days of the War of Independence and for that it’s leaders should be exposed, condemned and punished but this won’t give me an excuse to leave my Church and join another Church, I’m not that type of person.

    At the end the problems are the individuals within the Church that need to be rooted out because of their actions not the Church itself, as there many are good priests in Cuba today totally opposed to Cagastro’s tyranny.

    And regardless of the actions of Cardinal Ortega, the Cuban people need to gather their faith in God and loose their fear of Cagastro’s tyranny. If that would happen you would see a mass revolt in Cuba. Parading La Virgen de la Caridad Del Cobre may (or may not) achieve that effect.

    Maybe Cardinal Ortega did not take this issue into consideration when he started making these plans to parade the Virgin around Cuba.

    We’ll see…

  2. Freedom,
    We do not disagree often that I can remember. Just what is it you are going to do within your local RCC that will address the erros of the leadership of the RCC which is enslaving the Cuban people?
    A tree is affectoed by its roots and not its fruits. Its is the fruit that is affected by the roots. You cannot separate one from the other. The RCC is not just a board in Rome, but every local parish as well. So I ask what will you do to change the errors?

  3. I thought that I was very clear in my statement pototo,

    But I think that some of your statements imply, please correct me if I’m wrong (I could be) that maybe we should leave the Roman Catholic Church and join another Church because the Roman Catholic Church supports Cagastro in Cuba.

    If that is what you’re trying to imply, then you’re dead and way WRONG.

    You have no right to tell me which Church I should belong or not, as I don’t have the right to tell anyone which Church they should belong or not.

    That’s their God given choices, whether we agree with it or not. For a good reason it is called freedom of religion and choice to worship.

    The truth is (as Alberto rightly pointed out) that not only the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of supporting Cagastro in Cuba, the other Churches are just as guilty of that sin.

    In regards to the Roman Catholic Church support for Cagastro in Cuba I will tell in no uncertain terms that I won’t tolerate that from any of their leaders and they won’t have any of my support whether is monetary, moral or public.

    But I’ll still be a member of the Roman Catholic Church as it is not about the Church that Jesus Christ founded on earth. It is about the rotten apples in the congregation.

    So I think it is more about those in its hierarchy guilty of sin that need to be removed from their posts to cleanse the Church.

    Unfortunately the sad fact is that Roman Catholic Church has had many leaders throughout history that have given a black eye to the institution.

    By the way, my local priest hates Fidel Castro as much as I do (if not more and by the way, he’s not Cuban) and my parish is extremely anti-Cagastro in every sense of the word. So if I was going to stop supporting my parish I would be shooting myself in the foot.

  4. Guys, we’re really wasting time arguing about this. As far as I can tell, none of us here discussing this issue worships a denomination.

    Our energy should be focused on helping those who are worshiping a denomination instead of God to take their eyes of an organization and its human leaders and put their eyes on God. Arguing over styles of worship will not further the cause of freedom in Cuba and will only serve to divide us.

    The issue here is not Catholicism, or Protestantism, or any other “ism”; the issue here is the church organizations in Cuba that have lent themselves to be tools of the regime.

    Let’s not lose sight of this.

  5. FFC and Alberto,
    I believe I have miscommunicated or have been misunderstood. Either way allow me to clarify.
    I will not hide the fact that as a former Catholic I am doctrinally in total disagreement with the RCC. But that does not influence me in any way. Neither am I trying to tell anyone what church they should go to. That is the Holy Spirit’s job. What I AM trying to say is as follows:
    1.The RCC (whether St. Peter’s in Rome of St. anybody in anyplace parish is one in the same.
    2. No matter who is the leader it is the same institution.
    3. Since the above are true and the RCC is helping to oppress the people of Cuba it is the responsibility of Roman Catholics everywhere to stand against their leadership and demand a change.
    4. Roman Catholics are the only ones who can put pressure on their leadership to do so.
    5. This can be done financially as I believe FFC is saying, in complaining, and having the local parish make complaints to the responsible Bishop and Diocese.
    6. Any monies given to the local parish do indeed benefit the hierarchy. So I disagree that you would be shooting yourself in the foot. In reality it would cause the local parish, Bishop, etc. to take notice of wrong policy and put pressure on others to correct it. Could it have a negative impact on the parish? Yes, but it is a small price to pay to fix a very large wrong. To not complain and attempt to change the wrong would be shooting the Cuban people in the foot or worse.
    7. The RCC is not Christ’s church on earth 😉 (had to throw that one in. I was once a Catholic’s Catholic and have done my research, but that one was for fun)
    8. My allegiance is to Jesus Christ and no denomination or group of men. With that I will oppose any institution who I feel is wrong no matter who they are or how important they feel they are. Whether Christian, Catholic, Protestant, etc.

  6. It’s also worth keeping in mind that the reason the RCC is involved in this whole prisoner deportation business is that the Castro regime wanted and allowed that to happen. Yes, the RCC agreed to play the regime’s game, but no matter what the RCC itself may want or intend, it could NOT be a player like this without the regime’s approval. If the regime had wanted to use some other intermediary, like the ever-willing Jimmy Carter or Jesse Jackson or even Bill Clinton, it would have done so. The regime will use anyone and anything it can, and will obviously exclude anyone it cannot. Again, this is not an excuse for the RCC. I think all Cuban Catholics are fully entitled to question and object to Vatican policy on Cuba, as has been done repeatedly in published writings by former political prisoner Armando Valladares, who is a practicing Catholic (which I am not).

  7. Asombra,
    Could you imagine if they had not played the regime’s game? Would the pressure cooker finally have blown? Who knows, but now we never will. Now many in the opposition are off the island for good.
    As for Valladares or anyone else writing is one thing. Taking actions that will affect change is different. Not to say that the writing did not have an impact, but Valladares’ statements are contextually different than what is going on now. It is a specific action that is being addressed in the hopes that it will cease and never happen again. The letter by the dissidents said it quite clearly.

  8. pototo,

    Remember the problem is that local parishes have big bills to pay these days (maintenance, utilities, etc). Small contributions made by their members allow them to keep their doors open.

    No small contribution from their members, no money to pay the bills, therefore no place to worship because the church must close its doors, is that simple.

    The issue is regarding the big contributions that the hierarchy can use for own their agendas. I would not give the big contributions to the hierarchy, anyway I cannot afford to give a big contribution, lol.

    Regarding your point number seven,

    Well, I heard that one before from friends that left the RCC for other Churches. Sorry, but I’m not dissuaded by that argument. But I also believe that the other Churches also worship Jesus Christ.

    This is and always will be a very controversial topic maybe we should stay out of it as Alberto says it does not belong to the bigger issue at hand.

  9. asombra,

    My suspicion is that Cagastro has something on Cardinal Ortega as many years ago he was imprisoned in an area in Havana (I believe the place was called Alamar) that was user by Cagastro to punish homosexuals.

    My father once meet an individual that imprisoned there and this individual told him that he had been buried up to his waist in the ground as punishment for been homosexual, so imagine the kind of human rights abuses that took place at that facility.

  10. Correction asombra,

    I checked with my father, he recalls that place been in Santa Clara and called “La Uma”. Maybe someone else at this blog ever heard of the place from someone else.

  11. This has been a lengthy and spirited discussion between hermanos en la causa, which I have been trying to follow without missing a point.
    But I think that I did. Pototos question was “What will you do (us, you,they,) to change the errors?)
    Was the question answered?
    Thanks guys.

  12. Henry,

    I clearly stated what I stand for but what I won’t do is leave the RCC because some of its hierarchy has a pact with the Devil. I just won’t support the hierarchy, that simple.

    If that isn’t enough of an answer to you I just don’t know what else to say.

    Everyone has their own take on this issue and their suggestions on how to go about it were expressed in their posts. You may (or may not) agree with some of our positions.

    I say that there are no easy answers as the Church throughout history has made (and continues to make) errors (just as the rest of mankind), as it has more to do with human beings that manage to screw things up.

    Just remember not to forget those priests that belong to the Cuban RCC that don’t share Cardinal Ortega’s position (I suspect that there are many). They don’t deserve to pay for the Cardinal’s sins.

  13. this is about any ism

    I respectfully disagree, though. I think this is about Marxism and Liberation Theology which has grown as a cancer on the Catholic Church in “Latin America”. In many parts of South America – “Catholic” has almost become synonymous with “Communist” – ironic I know considering Fidel and Co. hated Catholicism. I don’t find anything disloyal about leaving an organization that has lost its way … and not returning until they find it.

  14. Mr. Mojito:

    Perhaps I should have been more precise, but I believe everyone is aware that my reference to “isms” was strictly regarding standard, mainstream religious denominations, not political ideologies.

  15. FFC,
    You said
    “I clearly stated what I stand for but what I won’t do is leave the RCC because some of its hierarchy has a pact with the Devil.”
    Do you realize what you just said?
    The hierarchy IS the RCC. A pact with the devil by those who are supposed to represent the very enemy of the devil is crazy.
    The answer to your question is that Roman Catholics will do nothing to protest their church’s position regarding Cuba. It is sad but true. The blind loyalty to a mand made organization allows many to overlook sin in an organization that is supposed to be against sin.
    Why post about the RCC and its sins against Cuba? If all we will do is say that they are bad then walk away. Why them post against any organization or government that sins againts Cuba? After all any individual can stand up and say that their allegiance to that organization prohibits them from acting. Do we owe Gloria Estefan an apology as her muscial principles must be respected? Should we forgive the 5 Cuban spies as they were only looking after their interests? Maybe we should cut New Mexico some slack as after all they only want to help the Cuban people eat?
    This is all amazing. I have the greatest respect for FFC and many others here, but in this issue I am dumbfounded that no matter what an organization does they are absolved.

  16. Pototo:

    I truly respect your opinion, but I have never “absolved” the RCC. I have been quite consistent in holding their leadership accountable for their actions. I will continue to do so, and since I am NOT a Catholic and never have been, I have no Catholic religious beliefs to defend.

    I believe the focus should remain on the decision makers in the RCC. Yes, they are funded and supported by members of the church, but how practical is it for us to take on hundreds of millions of Catholics that are mostly ignorant to the backroom deals going on in Cuba? It really doesn’t make any sense to make this a religious issue when it is, has always been, and will continue to be a political one.

    Think about that.

  17. I want Pototo to put the same question that he asked of “Freedom for Cuba” to me.
    Thanks Pototo. Here What I have been doing. I have written several letters to RCC officials both in Washington D. C. AND the Vatican. What good will they do? In all probability not much….or nothing at all.
    I have also solicited prayers in my Parish Prayer book for Cuban Political Prisoners “Abandoned” by the Cuban Catholic Church. This is read out loud for all parishioners to hear. When I am asked by some of these people why I feel this way…..I have my opening to explain and bring them up to date.
    I think that this is what Pototo was asking of “Freedom for Cuba”
    Un abrazo lleno de dignidad Cubana to both of you . You guys are great.

  18. “The hierarchy IS the RCC.”

    I totally disagree with you pototo but I guess you want to continue on your ranting theme against the RCC.

    By the way, I also wrote this right after that statement:

    “I just won’t support the hierarchy, that simple.”

    Sincerely I don’t know what else to say…

    You failed to add that, that would have clearly explained my views and cleared any questions you could have.

    By the way, please let me remind you’re totally disregarding the good works of the many priests doing God’s work on earth that are not responsible for the actions of the RCC hierarchy but I guess you hold these priests (they are the RCC too) on the same regard as those sinful at the top.

    I stated extremely clear what my views are from the very beginning of this threat but it is obvious that you’re so tunnel vision in your hate towards all of the RCC (the good and the bad within the Church) that does not allow you to comprehend what I’m writing. Unfortunately that’s an issue with some people that leave the RCC and then move on to other Churches as they sometimes may turn that way.

    I don’t know what more to say of you, sincerely you’re beginning to piss me off with your litany.

    For the last time, please don’t imply anymore that I should leave the RCC because of the hierarchy (you don’t have the right to do that), believe that’s how you come across to me (and I sincerely hope that I’m wrong) the more you continue insisting on this topic.


    By the way, the priest at my Church (that hates Fidel Castro and Communism with passion) prays for Cuba’s freedom on a regular basis and like I said before my parish is extremely anti Fidel and Raul Castro and everything they have done to Cuba.

    The problem is here in South Florida we all know what is going on in Cuba. In others states no one knows or cares about it and the message needs to be carried to those areas.

    In your neck of the woods (LA) they’re very pro-Che and Castro (you know it better than I).

    I’m sure you lock horns with individuals there on a regular basis regarding the Cuba issue.

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